Tomatekh's New Civilizations

One question about Kievan Rus'? Weren't you planning on replacing the UB icon with the last update? The mod is still using the Stave Church icon.

It was, and I did make one, just, after working on it way too much I wasn't really satisfied with how it ended up coming out so I didn't include it. Maybe I'll try again to make a new one at some point, but I'm focused on doing other mods/updates first.
 
Sea trade routes give about 12 gold on average in the midgame and about 20 in the lategame. Not sure about land trade routes, but I assume that they would produce 6 and 10 gold respectively.
 
Okay, here is the "beta" release of Champa.

Download Here



Leader: Che Bong Nga

UA: Pirates of the South Sea: Starting in the Medieval Era, any met Civilization which does not have an active Trade Route to or from Champa loses Gold per turn (penalty increased and Gold deposited in your treasury if you are at war with the Civilization). Naval Melee Units train 10% faster.

UU: Ballista Elephant Replaces Trebuchet. Does not need to set up to attack but has a much smaller bonus vs cities (+100% instead of +200%). +50% defense vs Mounted Units.

UI: Immortal Well Available at Optics. +2 Food. +1 Gold after Navigation. Generates Golden Age Points whenever a Cargo Ship (Sea Trade Route) not owned by Champa travels within 2 tiles of the Improvement. May only be built on flatland coastal tiles. May be built outside friendly territory. May not be built adjacent to another Well or on top of Resources.

Why is this a beta release:

1. It's missing a bunch of art.
- No original leader screen, or leader icon.
- No original unit icon (it does have a unit graphic, though)
- No original improvement graphic, or improvement icon.

2. It has a Denmark DLC dependency (it's hijacking the Hadrian's Wall improvement graphic at the moment; see #1).

3. It's overwriting the toppanel.lua file (I'm pretty sure you can edit the toppanel lua without overwriting, just didn't learn how for the beta release).

4. Balance is probably way off.

Of those, the art is the only real issue. I don't know how long/if it'll take me to get everything together for an official release (look how long its taken me just to release a playable version). Plus, I'm well aware that the quality that's come to be expected from my civs has long since exceeded my ability to make some of the art myself. I'll see what I can put together in the near future. It has music, though, all the civlopedia and flavor texts, a map and civ icon.
 
I also think I should more fully explain how some of the abilities work. I don't think it would be too surprising to say that at one point I was considering making the civ more of a 'pro' type civ that didn't have any of their own trade routes and instead leached gold off everyone else's trade routes. The UA was originally more open, and the UI would give gold instead of Golden Age points.

UA: I didn't really want to do a pro civ. However, I did end up liking the idea where part of the UA is a negative to every other player instead of a bonus to your civ. So yes, if there are no trade routes between you and Champa after both civs are in the Medieval era (and you've met Champa) you lose some gold per turn. This isn't much, only like -3 gpt at the Renaissance era (i.e. it's just the era count). It's supposed to be more a mild annoyance than infuriating restarting the game if Champa happens to show up in it. If, however, you are at war with Champa you lose a lot more gold per turn (I think at the moment its 3 times the era count) and that gold is given to Champa. So, essentially, Champa leaches gold from any civ it's at war with. The numbers probably need to be adjusted. The Naval Melee Unit training is to give the civ an additional naval theme. The UA could also probably use a better name.

UU: Okay, first a history lesson. The arcuballistae technology was invented in China and then first traded into Inodchina in 1171, and it was traded to Champa. The Cham were the first to mount it on the back of elephants. Champa and the Khmer were constantly either fighting or intermarrying and by the 13th century the technology had migrated to the Khmer. So, although I know everyone probably thinks (because of Civ IV) of the ballista elephant as a Khmer thing, it was actually a Cham innovation (and became a part of both civ's armies). Why did I give it to Champa? Well, there are problems doing a naval UU, and while I could think of a few UUs to possibly give to a Khmer civ, Champa has a much more limited surviving historical record to draw from. As for the ability, removing the set up turn is extremely strong and probably overpowered. I liked the idea of a quick siege weapon, so I wanted to see if it would work with a lower city bonus. If not, I'll probably rework everything. None of the bonuses are kept on upgrade.

UI: First the name, I have no idea what to call Champa's wells. I couldn't find any actual name for them. Maybe something exists in non-english sources. I couldn't even find the Cham word for "well". They're identified today because of their square shape, and I was going to just call them Square Wells, but that seemed too plain. I found one passing reference to them as Immortal Wells (as they were extremely efficient at providing fresh water, so much so that many are still in use today centuries later) but I can't really attest to that website's reliability. They formed a key part of Champa's maritime network. Anyway, besides the yields. The two unique aspects of the improvement are that it provides golden age points whenever a cargo ship passes by it (the actual ship traveling along the trade route, not just the trade route), and it can also be built in neutral territory. You get the golden age points whether the well is in friendly, foreign, or neutral territory. The idea is that you could potentially build them along active shipping lanes on the map. How effective this would be in game, I'm not sure. If the well is in another civ's territory (they settle near the improvement), it will give golden age points to both Champa and the owner of the tile (the owner gets 1/2 the points Champa gets).
 
Any good reference for the UI's look?... Also, who's the leader?
 
Any good reference for the UI's look?

This is the most detailed description I could find for them in an article:

"These wells are very typical of the Cham: circular or square at the top, square at the base, and the bottom is always lined with wood."


Almost every mention of them emphasizes their square shape.

Honestly, I don't think they looked all that remarkable. A cube with a hole in the middle coming out of the ground?


Here's the inside of one still used today:
Spoiler :

Here's another one still used today, but this one is atypically not square:
Spoiler :

Another one unearthed in a modern city:
Spoiler :

I haven't been able to find that many pictures.
 
Found another description which is more of the same:

"Researchers say the round or square-top and square-bottom wells are the inventions of Cham people before the 15th century.

In general, all wells are made of bricks at the top and have square wood frames at the bottom. The frames are designed to make wells stable and last long, preventing their collapse. Bricks are piled without using cement to create leaks so that underground water can flow in and maintain water levels."

Maybe I should just rename them to Square Wells. It might be plain but at least it would be accurate. I don't really trust the reliability of the reference for Immortal Wells.
 
What a treacherous little dependency you got there.

Anyway, congratulate on UI, it has this "game in game" factor, making me wonder about strategic islands and capes. Some Collosus start should work too. Don't know the numbers (too lazy to investigate the code). It might be balanced, therefore not worthy to focus, but nice anyway. +2 food to remove the dilemma about farms. Good design.

UA is obviously outrageous, not counterable and quite unexcepted. Oh, I would not send a Trade Route to them. I would rather wipe them out of game. I believe they have decent flavour making them decent target of trade routes. Though, I would probably change it to "leech gold from Cargo Ships crossing your territory, which owner has no naval Trade Route to you, automatically destroy if at war (+200 gold)". I believe you can make it (we can't connect unit to trade route, but we can read domain type). Simpler, easier to balance (large maps, 18 * Era gold per turn is huge, I learned it once) and more reason to settle strategically points... (my little "game in game").

About Ballista. I am noob, relying my medieval expansion on Crossbowmans. I would probably ignore this UU. It's fine though. One may question taking off 1/3 power for one attack. I mean, against human player it would be truely strong, but AI cannot focus fire so well.

I am afraid I can't help you with art. Nice job, keep it up.
 
UA is obviously outrageous, not counterable and quite unexcepted. Oh, I would not send a Trade Route to them. I would rather wipe them out of game. I believe they have decent flavour making them decent target of trade routes. Though, I would probably change it to "leech gold from Cargo Ships crossing your territory, which owner has no naval Trade Route to you, automatically destroy if at war (+200 gold)". I believe you can make it (we can't connect unit to trade route, but we can read domain type). Simpler, easier to balance (large maps, 18 * Era gold per turn is huge, I learned it once) and more reason to settle strategically points... (my little "game in game").

Well, my thinking for the UA was not even to get more people to trade with you (which wouldn't work that great outside of MP, and Morocco does the same thing better, anyway). I actively wanted to give them a "bonus" that was a negative for everyone else rather than a plus for themselves. I know people probably outright hate this. It's somewhat like the Great Wall (which is probably a bad example to bring up because I know people universally revile the Great Wall). The Great Wall doesn't really give you a benefit per se, it just gives a negative to everyone else. It was a direction no other civ in the game took. (It also struck a historical chord as Khmer, Vietnam, China were constantly complaining to the Cham kings about coastal raiding populations which the Cham monarchy had little control over).

As for the implementation. Early game, it doesn't do anything. Mid game, honestly, 2-3-4 gold per turn is not enough to make me go out of my way to destroy a civ on another continent if I wasn't planning on doing so already. That's the reason for the trade route exception. If you are on the same continent as them, you're probably trading with them anyway, so you don't have more reason to kill Champa if they're your neighbor. Late game, well you're trying to kill/win against everyone anyway late game. Plus, if every civ has a negative, it's impact on you is much more mild than if only you had it. The leeching gold from someone's treasury when you're are war aspect I actually really like (even if I remove the first part, I probably wouldn't remove that). I doubt any of the values for any of the abilities are balanced as I didn't test them they way I would if this was a final release.

And actually, when I was designing the civ more as a pro no trade route civ. I did have almost the exact ability you suggested coded. I dropped the no trade route direction because, well, you ended up doing a lot of work just the get the same benefit everyone else got from trade routes. I then limited the stuff from foreign cargo ships just to the UI because I didn't know how effective the "game in game" would really play out. I convinced myself that as much as I liked the gameplay idea, its something that in actuality would probably be overly tedious and annoying to play. So I wanted to see how the UI actually played out before deciding on expanding the design back to other areas (for this or future civs).

About the UU, keep in mind that the unit can now also attack other units without setting up. At the same cost as a crossbowman, the elephant can double as somewhat weaker crossbowmen in addition to attacking cities. In terms of strength vs. cities, the unit maintains more damage vs a city than the standard trebuchet up until the third turn (say, 4-8-12 instead of 0-6-12).

By the way, if people universally hate the "negative UA" design I will probably change it (or more likely release two versions of the civ with two different UAs) once I have art.

As for the dependency, lack of original improvement art, (though for someone of your modding skill it's no trouble to edit the Art Define of the improvement in the XML to say the Moai and erase the dependency line in the modinfo file).
 
What exactly did you need art for?
 
What exactly did you need art for?

Actually, might I take you up on your previous offer to do a leader button for the 3D Mansa Musa that Ekmek made? I had meant to put something together for that by now and just haven't been able to. I hate to keep everybody waiting, so updating Mali has become more of a priority for me at the moment than finishing Champa.
 
I absolutely love the UI, it's a really cool idea. However, I wish I could somehow see the amount of points I'm getting. From what I saw you can have multiple wells along a single trade route, is that intended?
Liked the UU as well, the lack of set-up allowed for some nice coastal attacks.

I don't really have a concern with the UA, other than the fact it's a bit on the passive side; but then again, a lot of other civs are as well, and yours is certainly better than, for example, Egypt's.

Well, I'm already updating the toppanel to display the Champa gold thing. I could do something similar for the golden age points, only it would be a turn delayed. So It'll say you're getting "+x per turn from wells" if you hover over it, but that's what you were getting last turn. If that wouldn't be too confusing?

Multiple wells is intended (and somewhat mitigated by no hill, resource, or adjacent tiles). The golden age value also isn't that high at the moment (I think it's only 2). It's more proof of concept until I figure out exactly how effective the ability is, and play some games on standard maps to see how many you can set up before setting a final value. Alternatively it might also scale by tech or era in the final version.

Yeah the passiveness of the UA did cross my mind. I generally prefer to try and make something more active. I figured the UI had enough of an active component that I'll let the UA pass.
 
Here is a quick thingo:

Spoiler :
 
Sure thing

Spoiler :


j/k I'll work on him later.
 
Made him a bit easier to see at smaller sizes and dons a slightly more smug look as opposed to being a Morose Mansa.

Spoiler :
 
Well, my thinking for the UA was not even to get more people to trade with you (...)
I actually like Great Wall. One of wonders I spend GE from liberty if not taken yet. Easy wide-diplo game.
The difference is that Great Wall is not active until enemy "activate" it.

Well, some clarification, cause you may understood me wrong. I wasn't thinking about no-Trade Routes at all.
I meant that you leech gold from opponent who have no naval Trade Route to (not with) you, but his/her cargo ship(s) are going through your territory (Champa player's Trade Routes would be irrevelant). I suggested to make UA more "local". Instead of territory, it could be also a range around cities.

About the UU, keep in mind that the unit can now also attack other units without setting up. At the same cost as a crossbowman, the elephant can double as somewhat weaker crossbowmen in addition to attacking cities. In terms of strength vs. cities, the unit maintains more damage vs a city than the standard trebuchet up until the third turn (say, 4-8-12 instead of 0-6-12).
You described best scenario, ignoring terrain cost (not forget Great Wall ;) ). There is a drawback in some scenarios.
Anyway, I think it may be reliable to level them up in order to rush logistics Artillery. I didn't think about that yesterday.

As for the dependency, lack of original improvement art, (though for someone of your modding skill it's no trouble to edit the Art Define of the improvement in the XML to say the Moai and erase the dependency line in the modinfo file).
I know, I shall play once I find enough time.


I would also prefer if everyone would share art in proper dimension. Zooming out is tiring.
 
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