Discussion in 'Civ5 - New Civilizations' started by Tomatekh, Aug 16, 2012.
Yeah sorry, I just use the same template for everything.
Tentative modding plans:
-Release a BNW update for the Kongo Zambezi mod (early to mid week).
-Release an update for my Historical Religions mod (mid week).
-Release a music update for the Garamantes (late this week or early next week).
-Release a music update for the Hittites (late next week).
-Sometime in the near future release minor updates for my Expanded Civlopedia Entries mod, and my Sumer and Timurids mods (give them different war and piece music instead of them using the same track for both).
-Continue working on Champa
Can AI use Immortal Well for gathering golden age points?
Also, do all trade routes provide GAP, no matter who sends them?
I believe Ekmek was fixing a problem with the arm socket of the model. In any case, Mali would just be integrating Ekmek and TPangolin's art, not editing any of the civ's stats.
It functions identically for human and AI players (Ignoring the AI not really knowing where to build the well the same way as a human player. It will still build the well in its territory and gather points from those. I may add an AI handicap where they get extra points from local wells).
Any Cargo Ship not owned by Champa generates the points.
First of all, really awesome-looking civs! The Harappa look particularly cool. Two questions about them, though. Do they have a river bias due to their historical river-ness? Also, is the bullock cart able to protect itself at all after it turns into the great merchant? I know merchants usually can't, but it would be risky to have your cart venture out far from any protection exploring, turn into a great merchant, and then find its way back through barbarians. Maybe that's what the movement bonus for protective units is for, though. These are all really exciting, unique civs!
I'm not sure about the bullock cart question, but looking at the XML shows that they have a river start bias.
Which reminds me Tomatekh, why do you include the river bias you gave Sumer as part of their UA?
I don't know if it is still called Inmortal Well, but here it is!:
Other modders might disagree with this but, if you look at the official civs, none of them are technically given a start bias for historical reasons. It's always to facilitate an early to mid game unique. These uniques usually coincide with a historical bias, but its why Egypt gets an avoid jungle/forest bias (to help their Chariot UU) instead of a Desert or River bias.
In this case, Harappa gets a river bias to help its UA and UB, both of which have an aspect that takes advantage of rivers. None of Sumer's three bonuses use rivers in any way, so giving it a river bias (which coincidentally is the only bias that can really be considered an outright benefit by itself) is an extra bonus, so I figured it should be mentioned in it's UA.
It just becomes a normal merchant with the upgrade, so yes, it can easily be killed by barbarians. Considering the strength of getting 1-2 free merchants that early in the game, I decided it was an acceptable risk-reward situation for the unit.
I'm also not entirely settled on this ability, so it might be replaced with something else in another update.
So the planned (and unplanned) updates for all my remaining civs are technically complete. I haven't released anything yet because I'm still looking for music (which always takes longer than you think it will).
Benin, Goths, Champa, and Rus have both music files already. Timurids, Sumer, Mali, Harappa have peace music. The Hittites and Garamantes have no music. Again, if anyone has any music suggestions for my civs as I continue to look, let me know.
In other news, I did release an update for the Historical Religions Mod and my Expanded Civlopedia Mods a few days ago.
Okay, so I've found some more music (every civ will at least have a peace theme). I'm planning to release the whole bunch of updates at once on Thursday.
While I'm doing a sweep of all my civ mods, I'd really appreciate if people can give me some balance feedback. Any of my civs you feel are too weak or too strong.
Some balance feedback:
Djalla is weak. When you are looking at a civ, and deciding how to play them, you want to feel like you are getting good value out of all of their unique attributes. For Djalla these are:
Aghrem: extra defence
UA: cities are a source of fresh water
UA: desert hills can become source of fresh water
Aghrem: Oasis get +1 food (making them a 5-yield tile)
So, the way I see it, the first three of those benefit expansion: you get some extra scouting early (lackluster), especially in the desert; you get extra defense from the granary, which means you can be a bit more aggressive with your city placement (when you come to defend them); and the fact you don't need to be next to a river makes that aggressive city placement even less constrained.
All of that is not hugely fun.
The last two of the five make desert cities better. This is more interesting, and has good flavour, especially given how awesome the Garamantes were IRL. However, these boni are fairly weak, and while 5-yield oasis are good, there aren't very many of them.
By the time fertilizer has rolled around, almost all the unique attributes have become obsolete or insignificant. There are few civs that become quite so vanilla in the mid and late game.
Imho, you should overhaul these guys significantly. Play off their desert bias. Desert real estate is limited in most games, so having a civ that really needs desert to be strong creates a good, cynical war-dynamic. My suggestion:
UA: Move the current UA to UI. Scrap the Plumed Nomad, give all melee and archery units double movement in desert. Second, for each fogarras/oasis worked, give +1/+1 gold to trade routes with that city (representing what we know about Garamantian trans-saharan trade)
UB: Aghrem: good already.
UI: Fogarras: Only buildable on desert hill. Fresh water source. Connects resources. +1 food (available with mining), +1 food at civil service (making desert hills self feeding 4-yield tiles). Something like +2 culture at archaeology to represent all the dinosaurs they dig up in the fossil layer (to keep the civ relevant going into the late game)
I knew nothing about the Garamantes before your mod, so thanks for teaching me something! Let's face it, orange/cyan is the best colour combo out there! These guys deserve some love!
I'm a big fan, Tomatekh, thanks for all your work.
The Garamantes are sort of one of those civs that I've never been completely satisfied with. (Also, as someone recently pointed out, they continue to have the worst art of all my mods, which doesn't help things).
In my original design for the Garamantes I actually had a UI, but that was before adding UIs to civ mods was really possible (and I didn't want to use a random graphic and have a DLC dependency which is what I did with Benin back then).
I've actually been thinking about returning to a UI for them (thanks to the farm crash bug being fixed and Leugi's awesomeness). Of course, switching to a UI is a more extensive overhaul and won't be ready for my patch of Thursday updates. I like your suggestions (although I wouldn't do a two UB/UI civ, and would keep the standard model of always having a UU).
I don't feel all of their current bonuses become obsolete at Fertilizer, though. Being able to have a Garden and Water Mill in every city, continuing to scout rival territory without open borders, and a random splatter of hill-farms are all abilities that remain unique past mid-game and can continue to pay off. I don't think that's that bad of an expectation for a civ whose abilities are all available from the Ancient Era, but they're also not the most interesting bonuses.
As I said, though, the Garamantes are sort of one of those civs that I've never been completely satisfied with, and their lack of a real military bonus always makes me question if they're too weak. Really, going forward with the UI is probably the best bet in making them standout (which would then require a new UA) and I'll keep your suggestions in mind when I finally get around to doing them.
Thanks for the feedback!
I played Timur recently and really enjoyed it, feedback:
As you are probably aware, the UA is the best thing about the civ. The double palace bonus is too good to miss, so in my game Lhasa met a grizzly by virtue of being the closest city to me. This built me a shrine, and so I got God-King as a pantheon. It was at this stage I realised that Timur is really well set up to go one city challenge mode:
The capital is a powerhouse, where many buildings are built for you, so you can just pump out military units
The UU doesn't require horses, so there is no need to settle near them
The UB (though I must say the bonuses are not very attractive) buffs a captial which is both the trade hub and the highest science output.
Presumably this is what you intended. It worked very effectively on Pangaea, and by the industrial era my strategy was:
Using great musicians, get familiar with a civ
Declare war and put spy in each city under siege (1 turn setup due to familiar)
Sell all the buildings the besieged cities had in my capital
Take the city and watch the Jewel of the East work its magic
Maybe not exactly as intended I ended up taking autocracy and winning a culture victory during a nuclear war. So that was a lot of fun!
If I had to make any criticisms, it would be that:
The Maydan is underwhelming. Firstly, I don't know if it makes sense to replace the university? Maybe the garden? Although there are a lot of garden UB. No UB uses the constabulary mind you (give me more spies!!) Secondly, the effects are pretty useless in anywhere but the capital/trade route hub. This plays to the OCC mode, but it still isn't much fun. (I think this is where you can turn this civ into something really special)
The Tumen replaces the lancer. I hate the lancer! More importantly, weren't these guys around in the 13/14th century? Would it not make more sense to replace the knight?
Those three red circles on the grey background are not the best civ-icon ever created
a) I think Tumen replaces the Lancer, because the Timurids came later than the Mongols, and we have many Knight replacements already
b) but it's the historical flag of the Timurids, so really nothing can be done here
The Timurids were actually mostly the 15th century (going a little bit into the century before and after), AD 1370–1507, so giving them a Renaissance based unit isn't incorrect. However, my main reasoning for it was exactly what Janboruta said; it replaces a later mounted unit than the Mongols.
I kind of the left the UB purposefully underwhelming because I found the UA to be a lot stronger than I originally thought, and the UU gets a lot of bonuses. It replaces the University because, well, there are no real base town square buildings, the caravansarai comes too early, so I finally decided on the University because the maydan of Samarqand (going on the capital theme), the Registan, is known because its surrounded by its three famous universities (madrasahs). Also, I knew that the bonuses wouldn't necessarily apply to every city, so I wanted it to replace a more essential building that you would naturally build a lot of. This way you would at least see the UB more, and you also wouldn't have to go out of your way to build something you normally wouldn't. This would be the case with the constabulary, which I also think vanishes from the game if you click the no espionage option(?).
By the way, I actually didn't think of constantly selling the buildings in your capital every time you're about to take a city. I don't know if that's completely broken (maybe?). Well, you're not guaranteed to get all the buildings back (although there are certain 100% capture buildings you can easily always do it for). But, I also don't think there's anything I could do about it code wise, so I guess this is one of those mod things where if you think it breaks the game, don't use it; otherwise, do.
One of the main things I liked about the ability was that you could also "collect" all the terrain/resource dependent buildings in the capital, i.e. capturing an Observatory for a non-mountain capital. I've found these building bonuses can sometimes really add up (which is another part of my thinking the UA was a lot stronger than I originally thought, so not to go overboard with the other uniques).
As for the flag, I'm happy enough that I made the colors look distinct from barbarians in-game. Otherwise, Janboruta is also right. The Timurids are one of those civs where you really don't have much choice when choosing their symbol.
Thanks for the feedback, no one really commented on the Timurids after I did their ability overhaul, so its nice to hear how they play.
I think the whole idea to sell buildings and get them back is awesome. I don't see a problem with that.
As said above that the tirmunds might be a good OCC civ, which isn't a bad thing. If strange strategies do end up forming around a civs UA, i'm all for it, as long as it isn't too good.
Okay so I did post a bunch of new updates on Thursday, and then got too lazy to document all the changes to post here. The only civ that I was planning to update that I didn't get to was the Hittites (so that'll probably come sometime next week). Otherwise, after that, I'm going to be full steam working on Champa.
a non exhaustive list of changes:
Goths: Mostly fully defined when the golden age will fire from the UA--I had some of this in the last patch (thanks to Lastswords suggestions). Only fires once per civ. Only fires with the original capital. Only fires if you capture it from the original owner. Re-added them firing with city-states (as they count as capitals in-game) but will only fire at 50% length for them. UA golden ages don't increase your total golden age count/cost.
Mali: Added Ekmek's 3D leader screen and TPangolin's leader icon. (TPangolin I hope you don't mind I changed the background of the icon. After playing with it some I felt it was too blue compared to the other icons in the mod, and I didn't want to bother you with the edit request--as I'm sure you're busy with your own mods--that I could do a decent enough job of myself. Granted the change I made was just a copy-paste job over the Djenne wonder icon, but it works for the time being).
Rus': Added a river start and switched part of their UA with Harappa. UB also increases the length of we love the king day again.
Harappa: Switched part of the UA with Rus'; starts with a trade route and caravan. UU can no longer upgrade to Merchants.
Timurids: Reduced the size of the civ alpha icons.
Garamantes: Peace music and reduced the size of the civ alpha icons.
Kongo: Pouakai provided a DoM voiceover recorded by Andrew Holt, edited the leader flavours, cleaned up the lua for the AI.
Historical Religions (released last week): Added Haida and Muisca religions. New icon and name for Iroquois religions (both versions of the mod). Fixed a bug if you used the mod with my civ mods and the islam denominations mod.
Civlopedia Entries: Various text fixes. Resource entries.
Separate names with a comma.