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Tomatekh's New Civilizations

Discussion in 'Civ5 - New Civilizations' started by Tomatekh, Aug 16, 2012.

  1. Alganon

    Alganon Warlord

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    Hmmm Manchuria ?
     
  2. Urdnot_Scott

    Urdnot_Scott Sultan

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    The Trucial States.
    Is this big project something to do with 'evolving' civs. I notice that map only has the cradles of civilisation populated, which seems odd on its own. Unless you're designing something similar-ish to Rhyes and Fall with dynamic civ generation. Or maybe that's just wishful thinking on my behalf.

    That new civ, is it the Xia? I also can't help but notice what I can only assume are the Olmecs over in Mesoamerica. Interesting...
     
  3. TheLohoped

    TheLohoped Known today as TLPD-AVW

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    This is obviosly one of the super old proto-chinese cultures. The question - which one?
     
  4. Natan35

    Natan35 Mayor of St. Natansburg

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    Great civ you got there, TSL!
    Hopefully TSL gave it TSL support...
     
  5. Urdnot_Scott

    Urdnot_Scott Sultan

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    The Trucial States.
    I went with Xia because its the earliest state we actually know(ish) existed. Chinese history is based heavily on some pretty dubious sources...

    (I guess we westerners solved that problem by not actually having any sources to draw from, barbarism has its perks eh?)

    EDIT: After further research, I take back my relative confidence in my idea. It could be any one of the ridiculously vague list of Chinese ancient cultures. Erlitou seems like a good one, but there's so little on it, and that's one of the more well known ones. I feel like the Xia would be one of the earliest you could actually build a whole civ out of.
     
  6. TheLohoped

    TheLohoped Known today as TLPD-AVW

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    The icon makes me think that's this is Shang dynasty rather than Xia. They had bronze works similar to the icon.
     
  7. SuperWaffle247

    SuperWaffle247 Secretary General

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    Excellent news! Urdnot Scott, I'm pretty sure Tomatekh just has an affinity for really early Civs. Like how each other other Civ authors has a theme.

    Not sure exactly what the new one is but it looks like early China so I'm getting hyped for some oracle bones. If it's the Manchus that's OK too.
     
  8. Urdnot_Scott

    Urdnot_Scott Sultan

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    It's not that, its just that on the posted map used as an example of the 'big project', all of the later civs aren't included, despite being an important part of Tomatekh's civ list, like the Sioux or Kongo. It's just the places universally regarded as 'cradles of civilisation'.

    Also, Egypt, a CoC, is on that map, despite being a vanilla civ, which makes me think this CoC thing is important.
     
  9. SuperWaffle247

    SuperWaffle247 Secretary General

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    Oh, right I missed the part about the big project. Thanks.
    I do hope that is the Olmec. My early states archaeology class from 18 months ago is getting me all excited.

    EDIT: Minoa's on the way, too, from MC. Wouldn't mind a Mycenae though.
     
  10. turingmachine

    turingmachine Emperor

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    The cradles make sense because Tomatekh already made half of them (Sumer, Harappa, Caral) so Tomatekh is probably finishing them. Egypt is already in the game. Wikipedia says the Chinese cradle is the Shang.
     
  11. turingmachine

    turingmachine Emperor

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    Also, Tomtaekh, are you going to update the format of your first post like More Civs, Colonial Legacy's, and JFD have done?
     
  12. bouncymischa

    bouncymischa Synthetic Genie

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    Because nothing is as individualistic as conformity! :p
     
  13. Tomatekh

    Tomatekh Sahib-i-Qirani

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    So, yes, it is the Chinese cradle.

    The Chinese cradle is actually somewhat difficult to represent because of how nationalistic and revisionist Chinese history is.

    First off, it's very possible there were at least two independent developments of civilization within China, but traditional Chinese history only cares about the development of civilization along the Yellow River. (And this is also not completely taking into account all the proto-Chinese cultures that existed but are not understood as "civilizations").

    Now, the earliest Chinese dynasty that there is archeological evidence for is the Shang (as its mentioned by name in the Oracle Bone script). However, the Shang are traditionally the second dynasty after the Xia.

    But, the Xia were probably made up by the Zhou dynasty to justify their succession of the Shang. However, this doesn't mean that there wasn't a civilization before the Shang. The question is just if the Zhou based Xia on any actual historical information or if the story of the Xia was just an independent invention with no actual knowledge of a state that may have existed before the Shang.

    Which brings up Erlitou. Erlitou is archeologically the first state-level society in China (so the emergence of "civilization") and is dated before the Shang. Because China likes to fit everything to their traditional history, Chinese academics equate Xia with the Erlitou Culture (though, again, there are no historical references to the name Xia before Zhou sources). However, many Western academics question if the Erlitou Culture should really be considered a separate culture, and, if instead, it's not more properly understood as just an early phase of the [Shang] culture.

    Because of Xia's traditional place as the first Chinese dynasty and its association with Erlitou, my next civ is called Xia. However, the civ's uniques (UU, UB) do still have some Shang influence.

    You're right. The design of the taotie motif used in the icon is more reminiscent of how its used in Shang bronze work. However, earlier forms of the taotie also appear at Erlitou sites, so I figured it was a good symbol to use for a Chinese cradle civ.

    Probably not. It's a lot of work :p

    :p
     
  14. JFD

    JFD Kathigitarkh

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  15. Tomatekh

    Tomatekh Sahib-i-Qirani

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    Wait, what's the difference between YnAEMP 23 support and the support I've been including?
     
  16. JFD

    JFD Kathigitarkh

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    Well, YnAEMP v23 adds about 15 new maps (see my signature :p); including a nice Americas map that would go great with the Caral (and is actually the only one of the new maps relevant to the Caral).
     
  17. Daigotsu Max

    Daigotsu Max Chieftain

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    Oh wow, the Caral look amazing! Interesting dynamic between coastal and inland. And hurray for more Luxuries giving us coral to add to their potential :D
     
  18. Burst

    Burst Chieftain

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    The Caral Civ is excellent to play, great job. I really like how the design makes the player works for the bonuses. It's very satisfying to boost a City with Coastal Imports or knowing you're the first to construct a particular Building.

    Just one issue came up in my play-through with the 'Develop Canal Irrigation' Decision. When a Farm was converted into a Terrace Farm, it removed the base yields of the Desert Hill Tile, leaving only the +1 Food from the Improvement. That stuck even when I removed the Terrace Farm. However, another Terrace Farm on a Desert Hill worked fine, so I don't know if it was just a odd one-off glitch. A few pictures here. Didn't really affect the game at any rate, superb mod.
     
  19. Natan35

    Natan35 Mayor of St. Natansburg

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    That's odd... this civ has been made by TSL, you know... and it has no support for that...
     
  20. JFD

    JFD Kathigitarkh

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