Tony Blair Announcing His Retirement

[Atropos]

And what exactly does being an ally of the US get us? Nothing except hate from those who hate America? Do we get aid? No: we paid off all debt incurred in WW2 ourselves. Are we even helped in the wars we join? No: our troops have to buy their ammo at premium prices from Americans in Afghanistan, because they don't get enough of their own.

You're forgetting Marshall Aid and 44 years of saving your rears from the Soviets. And even now, if the UK were to be threatened with invasion, China isn't helping.

Blair's legacy will unfortunately be a disastrous war. I say "unfortunately" because, in the sphere of foreign policy, his influence in the Balkans has mostly been positive (he largely inherited the NI resolution from Major). Domestically, he has redefined Labour around moderately progressive policies such as the minimum wage and healthcare spending - policies which the middle class could support and which therefore had an actual chance of passing. This isn't the Attlee era, and Royale's fate and the near-desintegration of the French socialists are a good example of what could have happened to Labour without Blair. In short, Blair gave Britain an actual second party, as opposed to one perhaps more consistent in its beliefs but unelectable. To that extent, he has strengthened British democracy, and I think that should be considered his real legacy, just as LBJ's real legacy was not Vietnam but the creation of a welfare state.

 

[GinandTonic]

You're forgetting Marshall Aid and 44 years of saving your rears from the Soviets. And even now, if the UK were to be threatened with invasion, China isn't helping.

Here was me thinking the UK sent Keynes to the US to borrow the cash and he was about to be turfed out on his ear when Churchill gave his "Iron Curtan" spech. Then the states gave the marshal funds to the rest of europe and the UK kept its loan which we made the final payment on just after christmass this year.

Not something I know a lot about so do tell me if I have the wrong end of the stick.

 

[EdwardTking]

The biggest changes such as minimum wage and devolution for Scotland happened early on and they would have very likely happened whoever was leading the victorious Labour party in 1997 and became Prime Minister.

The peace process in Northern Ireland had commenced under John Major.
A great many other people were involved varying from Bill Clinton and
the Republic of Ireland's government so no reason to just credit Blair.
BTW Peter Mandelson reckons that Blair conceded too much.

IMHO most of the UK's achievements are due to Gordon Brown's sturdy economic management, in spite of Tony Blair, who merely messed about.

Harold Wilson (who also won 3 elections) for Labour resisted persistent pressure from President Johnson to be drawn into the Vietnam debacle.
Harold was a modest man who'd have a fishing holiday on the beach in
the Scilly Isles and who resisted the temptation to suck up to the rich.

Attlee and Wilson will be remembered as the great Labour Prime Ministers;
whereas as Tony Blair will be remembered as an international embarassment;
for which his Iraq role will be compared via Anthony Eden and the Suez Crisis.

 

[Brighteye]

In short, Blair gave Britain an actual second party, as opposed to one perhaps more consistent in its beliefs but unelectable. To that extent, he has strengthened British democracy, and I think that should be considered his real legacy.

I think that making a party untrustworthy and less consistent weakens democracy. Because Blair gave up on beliefs and principles and jumped into the centre, dragging the other parties with him, we now have parties whose policies change with the wind, are not based on any principle, and are less distinguishable.
We therefore have far less meaningful choice. Blair has done a great deal of harm to democracy.

 

[bhsup]

That would be like the father copying homework from his son.

Not having any children of my own, I am forced to look to my brothers and their offspring. I must tell you, I know for a fact that many times my brothers are at an utter loss to help their kids with some of the homework, since they've totally forgetten the workings of the intestinal system and so forth.

Perhaps that's your problem, you've been at this freedom thing so long, you need a refresher!

And rid the Queen of her right to summarily sack our PM? No thanks, take your enlightenment elsewhere

Actually, I would really like to see that. For some odd reason, I've always had a fascination with your royalty and I'd just once like to see your monarch put those uppity parliment folks in their place.

You're forgetting Marshall Aid and 44 years of saving your rears from the Soviets. And even now, if the UK were to be threatened with invasion, China isn't helping.

On behalf of the United States of America, I wish to formally apologize to all Europeans for this statement. Being sooooo sick and tired of hearing my fellow countrymen constantly trot out that asinine "we saved your ass" line at every opportunity, I just wanted to assure our fine cousins across the pond that not everyone over here feels that way. We were allies, we fought together side by side, that's what allies do.

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

Actually, I would really like to see that. For some odd reason, I've always had a fascination with your royalty and I'd just once like to see your monarch put those uppity parliment folks in their place.

It'd be the last thing she ever does. She knows her role, shake hands and wave at tourists.

On behalf of the United States of America, I wish to formally apologize to all Europeans for this statement. Being sooooo sick and tired of hearing my fellow countrymen constantly trot out that asinine "we saved your ass" line at every opportunity, I just wanted to assure our fine cousins across the pond that not everyone over here feels that way. We were allies, we fought together side by side, that's what allies do.

Thanks VRWCA

Spoiler :

In fairness, it's usually only people who have less than 1,000 posts who say "US saved your ass". It's a similar situation with people who scream "war for oil!!1!1!"
Most people who have been on CFC for a while aren't that stupid or arrogant.

Atropos
Beware my geekhood
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 555

 

[Rambuchan]

I think that making a party untrustworthy and less consistent weakens democracy. Because Blair gave up on beliefs and principles and jumped into the centre, dragging the other parties with him, we now have parties whose policies change with the wind, are not based on any principle, and are less distinguishable.
We therefore have far less meaningful choice. Blair has done a great deal of harm to democracy.

I'd be inclined to agree with this assessment of Blair's effect on democracy in Britain. I'd also add to that his utter disdain for Parliament; his penchant for unelected advisors and officials, as well as overpriced and under performing consultants, all paid for with tax payers' (wasted) cash; his pioneering use of the Downing Street Press Office for manipulative and deceitful spin doctoring like we've never seen before and which will no doubt be here to stay; his sullying of party fundraising activities, and the further rise of surveillance culture in Britain.

Anything positive that can be said for the man's tenure can quite easily be explained as his riding a wave of good fortune or the good works of others, be that the Northern Ireland power sharing agreement, the economy's general stability or winning three elections in a row in the face of incompetent, misguided opposition.

His legacy can be summed up in three words: War, Wastage and Spin.

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

Ahh so Ram is making a return? You need this thread. Maybe now Non-Con can stop crying into his coffee and writing soppy folk songs about your expected return.

 

[bathsheba666]

And what exactly does being an ally of the US get us? Nothing except hate from those who hate America? Do we get aid? No: we paid off all debt incurred in WW2 ourselves. Are we even helped in the wars we join? No: our troops have to buy their ammo at premium prices from Americans in Afghanistan, because they don't get enough of their own.

I actually don't think this is a good argument. If our engagements have a firm background either of morality or self-interest (the latter without being completely immoral) then 'getting something back for it' should not be a consideration.

As there is no moral background for this engagement, however, then let's string him up.