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Too many "positive" agendas

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Stringer1313, Nov 20, 2020.

  1. Francel

    Francel Warlord

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    This isn’t specific to the types of agenda, but rather the importance of agendas.

    The AI seems a bit too friendly, especially for deity. In games of 8 to 10 players, I seldom have a problem forming all 5 alliances by the renaissance.

    Perhaps worse, once you have declared friendship, you are basically set with that civ. I can’t recall last time friendship wasn’t renewed.

    We should have to work a bit harder, I think.
     
    Cedbird77 likes this.
  2. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Yea, I think the main issue is the part in bold. I don't mind if AIs are friendly, but some should be backstabby like they were in 5.
     
  3. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    I've had the AI declare war on me the turn an alliance expired, and I play at low difficulties. It's not something that happens often, but I have seen it happen.
     
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  4. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    I think this is well-designed. People always respect powerful nations and undermine powerless ones. For example, few countries befriend North Korea, Zimbabwe or Venezuela while most countries are very friendly to USA. Different countries may due to different reasons (good economy, good scientific/cultural development, large population, good military, large land etc.), but eventually all of them points to USA.
     
  5. Galvatron

    Galvatron Warlord

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    That's exactly what they do. That's what they mean when they say your navy is weak. It's maybe 100% clear from the text, but that's what they mean.

    Every game. Also I try to displease them to give me an excuse for war, or to make third parties like me.

    In my current game I started by scoutin a trade route and thensending trade routes to Wilhelmina despite her route not being profitable because I saw she was ****ed and would essentially be my ***** for the whole game because of her start position.

    Now shes an ally that doesnt benefit from our alliance, ands my trade routes to her are EXTREMELY profitable.
     
  6. Abaxial

    Abaxial King

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    Harald says "Your navy is too weak, your coasts are too easy to raid" - but he doesn't actually raid them. And if he WAS going to raid them, why send out a warning in advance?

    Then I build one puny ship and he says "I like that you have a strong navy". He likes that my coasts are not easy to raid? Or is this Norwegian sarcasm?
     
  7. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    He's just a bro looking out for another bro, doesn't want you to get attacked by an opportunist.
     
    Meluhhan likes this.
  8. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    Wilhelmina and Harald are both prime examples of why agendas should be conditional. "How dare you not trade from me from the opposite side of the world!" "How dare you not build a navy in your landlocked empire without a single port!"
     
    AlannaT, racha and Fluphen Azine like this.
  9. Depravo

    Depravo Siring Bastards

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    The agenda where three or four rivals pop up to whine about how you're in a Golden Age and they want you to fail THE INSTANT YOU ENTER A NEW ERA is almost ragequit worthy.
     
    kaspergm and Zaarin like this.
  10. Duke William of Normandy

    Duke William of Normandy King of England & Unofficial Welcoming Committee

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    EU4 as well, Zaarin. EU4...
     
    Zaarin likes this.
  11. Galvatron

    Galvatron Warlord

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    Abaxial, your faith in Humanity is far too great.


    1. Because this is what idiots do in real life all the time. Half the time they catch criminals is because they say before the crime 'gee, I would like to do this illegal thing', or 'Well, whoever did the crime, who wasn't me, was clearly some sort of dashing rogue, and attractive to the opposite sex. I get lots of interest from them, especially after I stole the jewels. I mean he stole the jewels.'

    2. They're not actually the 'leader' of the civ, they're a personification of the civ. When Harold says that, it's representing your civ figuring out that the Norse are eyeing your assets and taking note of how many pies you're leaving cooling on the windowsill.

    The agenda works by comparing your navy to his, so if you have one ship then it's one more than his fleet. Yes that's a problem, but not because his agenda isn't working, it's because uncle Svalbard here isn't building a fleet.

    Anyways, to go further I didn't want to type an essay on my phone, so I'll mention something else I wanted to:

    Agenda's aren't for making Civ's like you anymore than they are about making Civ's DISlike you... or anymore than they are about making Civ's ambivalent to you. The point of agendas is to firstly give the game some natural dynamism and direction, and second give the AI natural incentive to follow its abilities. This second point isn't universal, but it's almost universal.

    On the first point: You don't want Civ's to like you anymore than you want them to dislike, or not care about you. A bullet point answer as to what you want and perhaps why:

    -You want Civ's to like you so you can exist peacefully, and or trade with them.
    -You want Civ's to dislike you so that they'll start a fight with you, and you can look like the good guy while you took all their stuff in 'self defence'. Also you can make some other Civ your friend when they were neutral or even negative towards you. I did that in my current game Javarskhectuman hated me because of my small cities and no holy sites, but I wailed on Peter until he became my best friend. Alternatively you may want a Civ to dislike you because you dislike them, and by getting them to denounce you, you break up a relationship between them and a mutual friend, weakening them both.*
    -The agenda isn't just about you trying to please them, it's about them trying to please/displease YOU. In my current game Pedro is winning all the Great people, he loves me, because he's beating me in the great person game. So I'm sending independent contractors to 'liberalise' his market. By force.


    On the second point: a few agendas for example: the two ways agendas work is either by leveraging the abilities, or just directly using the ability.

    1. Phil gets bonuses for fighting other religions, and he also gets a bonus from his unique unit from conquering other civs with other religions. Hence he hates people with other religions.
    2. Barbie gets bonuses towards conquering city states, and bonuses that make small cities more efficient. Hence he dislikes people that have an interest in controlling city states.
    3. Cathy gets bonuses towards espionage, so she dislikes civs with weak espionage, since she can dominate them
    4. Qin gets bonuses towards building wonders, so he dislikes it when other people start building wonders.

    These things give the Civ tools to improve their performance, but they also make the game spicier. You can't make everyone happy, and in fact some people you can't make happy, and conflict is unavoidable. Everyone, with a few exceptions, cares about territory, warmongers, and pollution, and given enough incentive will fight over them, but most civs won't lose their shift if you build a lot of wonders. It's another dimension of conflict, now instead of simply being able to please China by not forward settling them, dump chemicals in their water, or conquering their city states, you are coming into conflict by having wonders built. That means that if you want peace you have to dial back on wonder building, find another way to make him happy, or prepare for war. Or maybe your goals are incompatible, and you know that at some point you will have a war with China. So you have a few choices about that war: will you fight it now before he even becomes aware of the conflict, later when he denounces you, or will you wait until the last minute and just ride out his distaste?

    *Yes I'm pure evil
     
  12. Duke William of Normandy

    Duke William of Normandy King of England & Unofficial Welcoming Committee

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    I agree with you on a lot of these issues. :) I believe that the A.I. acting irrationally isn't too unrealistic. I mean, there are so many real moments in history that even Civ 6 A.I. wouldn't be dumb enough to do.
     
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  13. Abaxial

    Abaxial King

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    And does anyone seriously stop building wonders to improve a civ's opinion of them?
     
  14. Galvatron

    Galvatron Warlord

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    Surely you've had a wonder you were not sure you needed and were on the fence about.
     
  15. Casworon

    Casworon Prince

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    I would argue this is also to do with Americas massive culture output. We are all buying their Jean's and listening to their pop music.

    During the cold war the Soviet union was also a large powerful nation. But rather than nations liking them, they where terrified of them and allied against them (Apart from those in a soviet sphere). Perhaps the Soviet union needed better pop music ‍
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2020
  16. Abaxial

    Abaxial King

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    I would base my decision on how valuable the wonder was.
     
  17. Piranga

    Piranga Warlord

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    I've played that way a few times with China. Didn't build wonders, kept them as an ally. Declared war on some neighbor's of ours and stole their wonders.

    One leader with a negative Agenda I enjoy is Dido. I always befriend the Phoenicians. If Dido is in my game I don't settle on the coast.

    I'm happy with the current mix of positive and negative agenda's overall. I enjoy playing around both.
     
  18. Galvatron

    Galvatron Warlord

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    Actually some countries feared the US too... ands plenty of countries liked the USSR. Not making a judgment on either though.

    That's a paradox. You can't base your decision on something you can't decide on.

    Besides as I illustrated earlier this is only the fraction of the purpose an agenda serves. You know China won't like you building wonders, and that means you know you will need to try hard to achieve friendship , and you will come into conflict with them if you intend to build lots of wonders. You can choose to go against their agenda, or to preemptively begin conflict. 80% of the options are on the table.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2020
  19. Karmah

    Karmah Emperor Supporter

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    if an AI wants to wonder whore , it's only logical it will hate you for building one , which would lead to degraded relationship to lead to war to lead to conquering said wonder.
    So this principle is valid. Even tho the AI does not get to war despite that but that's a separate aggression-adverse issues.
     
  20. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    Would make more sense if you snapped up one that they were in the process of constructing. Regardless the AI shouldn't give you a pop-up screen where they throw a tantrum about it.
     
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