Too many wonders

[Paideia]

Civ VII currently has 62 wonders already (including the ones announced but not yet implemented). Civ VI had 53 wonders after two expansions and several DLCs..

I think the one-new-wonder-per-civ-rule needs to be revised.. Otherwise we are going to end up with an insane number of them by the end. It will either mean that a lot of building tiles are taken up by wonders or that a great number of them never get built. Either way it does rather remove some of the 'wonder' from wonders.

I do like that we get to see a much wider range of them and discover new fascinating locations, although some of them are a bit odd (I'm looking at you, Havana Harbor). But at this rate every single tech or civic is going to have at least one wonder associated with it before long.What's special about wonders then?

What are your thoughts?

 

[Krikkit1]

Civ VII currently has 62 wonders already (including the ones announced but not yet implemented). Civ VI had 53 wonders after two expansions and several DLCs..

I think the one-new-wonder-per-civ-rule needs to be revised.. Otherwise we are going to end up with an insane number of them by the end. It will either mean that a lot of building tiles are taken up by wonders or that a great number of them never get built. Either way it does rather remove some of the 'wonder' from wonders.

I do like that we get to see a much wider range of them and discover new fascinating locations, although some of them are a bit odd (I'm looking at you, Havana Harbor). But at this rate every single tech or civic is going to have at least one wonder associated with it before long.What's special about wonders then?

What are your thoughts?

I think it is reasonable because that way the Wonder races will be about production and which Wonder you want.

In a game, each civ will have some (either because they built some or stole them from someone that spent too much building them), but there will only be one of each of them in the World.


It does mean that the Antiquity Culture Legacy will get easier the more DLC you have. (unless at some point, they add the Antiquity Wonders from the DLC into the base game)

 

[Gori the Grey]

There should only be One Oneder.

 

[Xandinho]

It’s true that the game already has a lot of wonders, but we need to keep in mind that as more civilizations are added, we’ll probably be able to play with more than 12 civs in larger maps once that becomes possible. This means that the competition for wonders will still be intense—with 15 or 16 civs per match, or even more. Even with so many wonders available, I still feel pressured and lose the race for some of them quite often.

Personally, I don’t mind the game having a large number of wonders; in fact, they’re one of the most charming aspects of the franchise for me. So the more wonders the game includes, the better, and I’ll be grateful for it. I’ll definitely play on maps with more than 12 players sometime in the future.

Speaking specifically about Havana Harbor, I don’t think it’s one of the most inappropriate wonders in the game. I like the concept of a New World wonder, and I think Havana Harbor fits that idea well. However, it doesn’t feel quite right for the Pirate Republic. To me, Havana Harbor sounds more like a Spanish wonder 2.0.

 

[bengalryan9]

Civ VII currently has 62 wonders already (including the ones announced but not yet implemented). Civ VI had 53 wonders after two expansions and several DLCs..

I think the one-new-wonder-per-civ-rule needs to be revised.. Otherwise we are going to end up with an insane number of them by the end. It will either mean that a lot of building tiles are taken up by wonders or that a great number of them never get built. Either way it does rather remove some of the 'wonder' from wonders.

I do like that we get to see a much wider range of them and discover new fascinating locations, although some of them are a bit odd (I'm looking at you, Havana Harbor). But at this rate every single tech or civic is going to have at least one wonder associated with it before long.What's special about wonders then?

What are your thoughts?

Three thoughts:
1) I still think the Antiquity Wonder legacy path is still one of the most difficult in the game to reliably complete.

2) I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with games having a randomized "wonder pool" chosen from all the available wonders at the start of the game... something where the game says there will only be X number of wonders available per age dependent on map size and chooses that many from all available wonders. You could even let players customize which ones are and aren't included as an option. This would help control "wonder bloat" from being a problem as more and more wonders are added.

3) I think wonders need something in the later game to make them more worthwhile to build.

 

[tedhebert]

There should only be One Oneder.

Dad joke if I ever saw one

 

[Gori the Grey]

Dad joke if I ever saw one

Ok, during the sixteenth century, the English can have one more.

I got a million of 'em, I tell ya, a million of 'em.

 

[MutilationWave]

Three thoughts:
1) I still think the Antiquity Wonder legacy path is still one of the most difficult in the game to reliably complete.

2) I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with games having a randomized "wonder pool" chosen from all the available wonders at the start of the game... something where the game says there will only be X number of wonders available per age dependent on map size and chooses that many from all available wonders. You could even let players customize which ones are and aren't included as an option. This would help control "wonder bloat" from being a problem as more and more wonders are added.

3) I think wonders need something in the later game to make them more worthwhile to build.

Yes, antiquity culture is the hardest legacy path for sure.

I like your ideas, I'd just like to add that if a civ is in the current age, that civ's wonder should be as well.

 

[Yzman]

Civ VII currently has 62 wonders already (including the ones announced but not yet implemented). Civ VI had 53 wonders after two expansions and several DLCs..

I think the one-new-wonder-per-civ-rule needs to be revised.. Otherwise we are going to end up with an insane number of them by the end. It will either mean that a lot of building tiles are taken up by wonders or that a great number of them never get built. Either way it does rather remove some of the 'wonder' from wonders.

I do like that we get to see a much wider range of them and discover new fascinating locations, although some of them are a bit odd (I'm looking at you, Havana Harbor). But at this rate every single tech or civic is going to have at least one wonder associated with it before long.What's special about wonders then?

What are your thoughts?

I like options. I honestly rarely build wonders, hardly seen worth it.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I don't see the problem with too many wonders yet.

 

[Siptah]

I personally think it’s good to have many wonders. Many aren‘t as impactful as in previous games, but they are also much cheaper. Both can mean that the feel less wonderful. But they are a neat way to customize your kit further. Grab what really helps you and what you think you can build fast enough, and enjoy the benefits.

One way to reduce the perceived amount of wonders (if that is wished for) is to make a lot of them niche and with specific requirements. As is done for the Dai Viet Wonder already, for example.

 

[UWHabs]

I do think we're getting closer to having too many of them. Especially with the cost increase of buildings, it can be cheaper to build a grand bazaar than a guild hall.

Does that remove some of the wonder for them? Yeah, sort of. I kind of treat them more as like a global unique building, and outside of a couple of them, if I lose the race for them, so be it. I do like that they give a global adjacency, so in a lot of ways, I end up using them more just to be able to get 3 or 4 adjacency on my science or culture buildings if I just don't have a good spot with a bunch of resources or mountains nearby.

You could have a pool of wonders so not every wonder is available every game, although that would choreograph a little. Like if I see the pyramids aren't available, it means nobody is Egypt in my game. I don't mind having more available overall, and if some go un-built, so be it.

 

[Siptah]

You could have a pool of wonders so not every wonder is available every game, although that would choreograph a little. Like if I see the pyramids aren't available, it means nobody is Egypt in my game. I don't mind having more available overall, and if some go un-built, so be it.

What I dislike about a random or semi-random (i.e., civ-related wonders are set amongst others) is that it limits planning and strategy. If I want to build an antiquity strategy around maximizing resource slots, and then Monk‘s Mound and Colossus are not in the game, it‘s difficult. Similarly, if my plan for exploration is to do less converting, but more wonder building, I need Rila to be in the game. And to make any plans, I should know the wonders before selecting my civ, which makes the whole procedure quite awkward to imagine. Or quite random, if I have to go in blindly.

On the other hand, we are used to Natural Wonders behaving like that for the past 15 or so years.

 

[m_mus]

My problem is less how many wonders we have (and will have in the future if each new civilization has its associated one), but how unimpactful many of them feel. Building them (with exceptions) generally doesn't spark the same joy as in Civ6. And not only do they lack impact, they race to get to them is also way less exciting, since there's no chopping, no great engineers (Egypts Great People aside) to make a belated ground-breaking a gripping pursuit race. If an AI has started building before me ... well than it's ususally gone with no chance of me deciding that race in my favour.
There should be an analogue to investing more influence in IPs to make them your CS faster for building wonders.
Sry, for having brought up points aside of your OP, but that's how I feel about wonders.

 

[stealth_nsk]

My problem is less how many wonders we have (and will have in the future if each new civilization has its associated one), but how unimpactful many of them feel. Building them (with exceptions) generally doesn't spark the same joy as in Civ6. And not only do they lack impact, they race to get to them is also way less exciting, since there's no chopping, no great engineers (Egypts Great People aside) to make a belated ground-breaking a gripping pursuit race. If an AI has started building before me ... well than it's ususally gone with no chance of me deciding that race in my favour.
There should be an analogue for investing more influence in IPs to make them your CS faster for building wonders.
Sry, for having brought up points aside of your OP, but that's how I feel about wonders.

One of the big things which needs to be done is to show wonder bonuses on wonder completion screen. I have 600 hours in game and I still don't remember what most of the wonders do, so by the time I finish wonder, I usually don't know what it actually does. If it would be written directly, it would be much easier to feel their impact (a lot of wonders actually do have it).

 

[m_mus]

One of the big things which needs to be done is to show wonder bonuses on wonder completion screen. I have 600 hours in game and I still don't remember what most of the wonders do, so by the time I finish wonder, I usually don't know what it actually does. If it would be written directly, it would be much easier to feel their impact (a lot of wonders actually do have it).

That would certainly help and I'd like that. Good suggestion.

 

[disjointaccount]

they race to get to them is also way less exciting, since there's no chopping, no great engineers (Egypts Great People aside) to make a belated ground-breaking a gripping pursuit race. If an AI has started building before me ... well than it's ususally gone with no chance of me deciding that race in my favour.

I do agree it'd be cool to have more on this front, but fwiw if you know you want a wonder that's usually pretty contested, militaristic IPs are your best friend. Scout for them and take a commander over ready to clear it, then just do so once you start on the wonder. The burst of production it gives is a lot towards most wonders.

 

[pjotroos]

I think the few changes that have happened to wonders are no coincidence. They are:
- already more numerous than in the previous interations, with more being added in each content pack
- granting adjacency bonuses to all building types
- weaker than in the previous iterations
- taking less time to build

All of which points to a design that assumes you will have a couple of wonders in each of your key cities, buffing the specialist yields in your key districts. In most of the cases, their effect is a nice-to-have, and if you miss one, you divert the production to another, because the adjacency that it grants is at least as important as the effect itself. Outliers (like the original Gate of All Nations) are tuned down; they're not meant to make or break your game, the way some wonders in earlier games would.

In other words, they're less the type of wonder that you would fly halfway across the world to visit, and more the type you'd visit if you're already in the city/area. It's a different approach, and took me a while to adjust, too, but it works - and in a way, it's nice to see which ones you can get, rather than trying to rush Temple of Artemis, or Kilwa, or Pyramids every single game.

 

[disjointaccount]

I think the few changes that have happened to wonders are no coincidence. They are:
- already more numerous than in the previous interations, with more being added in each content pack
- granting adjacency bonuses to all building types
- weaker than in the previous iterations
- taking less time to build

All of which points to a design that assumes you will have a couple of wonders in each of your key cities, buffing the specialist yields in your key districts. In most of the cases, their effect is a nice-to-have, and if you miss one, you divert the production to another, because the adjacency that it grants is at least as important as the effect itself. Outliers (like the original Gate of All Nations) are tuned down; they're not meant to make or break your game, the way some wonders in earlier games would.

In other words, they're less the type of wonder that you would fly halfway across the world to visit, and more the type you'd visit if you're already in the city/area. It's a different approach, and took me a while to adjust, too, but it works - and in a way, it's nice to see which ones you can get, rather than trying to rush Temple of Artemis, or Kilwa, or Pyramids every single game.

Well put. There's nothing in Civ 7 on the level of Civ 6's S-tier wonders, and while part of me misses snowballing with the sheer power of Oracle or Mausoleum, I really don't miss the disappointment of missing out on Oracle or Mausoleum, or even just the early chunks of the game being very linear and railroaded in terms of tree-pathing and production queues because not going for Oracle or Mausoleum was kind of a throw (Civ 7 definitely isn't perfect in this regard either, but it feels a lot more open without the massive gravity wells of the must-have wonders for your gameplan dictating your early game).

Civ 7's S-tier wonders feel more in line with Civ 6's Macchu Pichu, to me. In the sense that they can be extremely strong, but getting the most out of them requires really leaning into a playstyle they facilitate. Like the Rila Monastery: it's potentially nothing more than an adjacency stick if you don't play around it, but if you build or conquer a lot of wonders, you reap huge rewards (which you can get even more out of with House of Wisdom and Wat Xieng Thong). Or the specialist limit wonders (Thanh Hue in particular is a great example of a higher power level being gated behind a higher level of investment), or the Serpent's Mound/Ubudiah Mosque.

Wonders being largely pretty-to-look-at boons for your adjacencies that give nice little bonuses seems like a much healthier general rule than the must-haves of Civ 6, and then for the more potentially game-defining ones, I vastly prefer them being pieces of a build that reward well-thought-out strategy than "build Oracle, slot in Pingala, go afk and come back to a victory screen".

 

[bbbt]

The wonders don't need to be crazy but a lot are pretty meh. I think they should be about 50% more wonderous than they are.

Like why are a number of wonders both cheaper to built and weaker than most of the buildings. Even the AI refuses to built Byrsa.

It seems an odd choice to give more wonders and make them more mediocre in a game where spaces to put them are even more at a premium - you can generally only build them in cities, and you have a limited amount of those.