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Too much culture bonus in %?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by LumenAngel, Jun 9, 2013.

  1. LumenAngel

    LumenAngel King

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    I m early medieval (in fact, I have nearly every tech you can have withour Lead Working).
    My capital will be legendary in 21 turns, and I have these bonus :
    • +3% :culture: from bonus (Creative trait)
    • +10% from Capital
    • +45% from Civivs (maybe a little too high? )
    • +510% from buildings

    Look like a little bug wake this 510%... Normally it would be 508% but look like Crime (Graffiti) have a bug...
    Even this 500% is far too much! Each cathedral (I found every religion except Shamanism, Hellenism, Zoroastrianism, Canaanism and Jainism) give me at least 25% :culture: bonus, one even give +50%! More than best wonders... The 4 Pattaky (Yoruba) give +40% (3 times +5%; one +25%), the 4 special mesopotamian temple give each +5%....

    I play with revo, but even with all these religions, I dont have any revolutions problems in any city : my 2nd biggest city is "Safe" and have "only" +385% :culture: from buildings... And will be Legendary in 77 turns.

    Maybe it's "normal" to have so many culture, but then, it's still too easy to have a Legendary city...
     
  2. DRJ

    DRJ Hedonist

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    Then change the number of legendary cities you need to win in XML to like 10 or 20...

    On the long run, we could think about tweaking cathedrals etc to a give fixed culture/turn bonus like +20 :culture: instead of a +50% or something.

    We did that with most gold & science generating buildings as well... and now that the developing leaders option values culture higher we should contemplate it there, too, imo.
     
  3. Johnny Canuck

    Johnny Canuck Warlord

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    Isn't there the option to turn off the effects of religious buildings if they do not belong to the state religion? That would address the cathedral bonuses.
     
  4. DRJ

    DRJ Hedonist

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    Yes, I think there is. Nevertheless, the question remains if :culture: % buildings should be converted to plain +XX :culture:

    - as I already stated above it has been done with science and commerce/gold - and rightfully so, imo.
    At least the early game is scaled very well by now.
     
  5. bill2505

    bill2505 King

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    what about making all alll religious building give +xx except state religion which will give %
     
  6. DRJ

    DRJ Hedonist

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    Fine with me but I don't know if its modable in the sense of disableing one bonus and enableing another when switching religions?

    But lets not forget there are other culture generating buildings like the radio tower also generating % :culture:, later. At least I think so, haven't been that far in the game for some time now.
     
  7. LumenAngel

    LumenAngel King

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    For me, having some + X% :culture: can be normal. Mainly some +1 or +2%. Some wonders, or some hard to have building (like Nature Legacy) or transhuman or later buildings can give a +5% :culture: or even +10% :culture:. But a carnival, a very easy building to have on some continent (bcause some subdues animals can build it) with a +50% :culture:, it's just too much

    And I m agree with the religious tag needed for effects. having a cathedral of his state religion giving a +5% :culture: bonus seems legit for me.
     
  8. Johnny Canuck

    Johnny Canuck Warlord

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    I think it would be possible to have a building give +x :culture:, & then give an additional +y% :culture: if z is the state religion (similar to how some religious buildings give :) if there is a certain state religion).
     
  9. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    If you have founded all religions but 5 you are playing on too easy of a level and need to raise your game. Culture is inherently weak in C2C. You suggestions are basically unneeded If you play on an appropriate Difficulty level. If you are playing Deity then there is a problem. If you are playing Noble/Prince/Monarch then there is no problem with Culture. The problem is you not playing a difficulty level atuned to your skill set.

    Since you are playing with REV On having multiple religions with associated civics will suppress city revs (gives better stability (and if you play with REV On why don't you know this?)). You Are keeping the ppl happy and supplying culture too. 2 of the demands REV wants for stability.

    Maybe you should try a game where you only target 3 religions and leave the rest alone?

    (Okay here's where DRJ brings in his counter argument)

    JosEPh ;)
     
  10. DRJ

    DRJ Hedonist

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    Nope, nothing to counter here, couldn't have written it better :)

    @LumenAngel If you see the game is too easy either try higher difficulty or limit your possibilities by self-made roleplay rules. Like don't attack a nation unless attacked or gift all tech to anybody etc...

    But still, turning the +% buildings into +XX would not be wrong imo.
    Also, turning up the rev malus exponentially for a lot of different religions in a city if not under free religion, secular or atheist etc might be an interesting idea.

    So the rev malus for 3 religions in a city (under organised religion) would be like "increased by 3" but the rev malus for 5 religions would be "increased by 7" and for 10 religions like "increased by 17".
    So having 3-5 religions would still be relatively possible but for more you'd need to adept to certain civics to handle it. Sort of a "city limit per era by civics" it would be a "max religion in city limit per era by civics" ; only that instead of "cities over the limit giving unhappiness" it would be "religions over the limit would give +rev instability".
     
  11. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Thanks to the Developing Leaders, however, Culture does, in many games, now matter more than it used to. As a result, we should be a little more careful with its progression. So a bit of balance review on culture and shaving it down some probably couldn't hurt too bad.

    Mind... that DL structure hasn't fully come together or struck its proper balance yet either and some work there is still pending. I'm just saying, if Culture is MUCH easier to obtain in great volume than Research, then our optimal balance is a little off.
     
  12. pi4t

    pi4t Warlord

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    There is, of course, a difference between everything being 'overpowered' (meaning one should play a higher difficulty), and one specific thing being too powerful compared with everything else (which implies there may be a balance issue with the mod).

    I'd also like to point out, though you seem to be going down that route anyway, that if the state religion buildings add a +n% culture they should also keep their standard bonus. Otherwise a city with poor culture might get more out of a non-state religious building!
     
  13. Dissonance

    Dissonance Warlord

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    A simple solution to this could be tying religious building cultural "income" to the religious civic. This way, even if you do end up founding a lot of religious, just running Folklore or Prophets will not give you incredible income.
     
  14. stoferb

    stoferb Prince

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    I think there is a relatively easy way to tie cultural output of cathedrals closer to the state religion. Make a special building for every religion that get's automatically built or replaced when switching state religion.

    I would also make wonders generate half their culture after 1000 years instead of doubling them.
     
  15. DRJ

    DRJ Hedonist

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    Sure. but not only that: imagine

    declining culture... how could that be simulated?

    For example one way to do this would be to apply a certain formula related to the revolution points generated each turn (in a city) which then could create negative culture (there).

    Once you have a lot of sentiment inside your civ it would decline in culture, possibly even drawing back borders! ^^

    You could build certain buildings to prevent this from happening, keeping the cultural expansion level safe with them being present... same for your developing leaders traits - so you don't lose them you could have a "safeguard" trait like "balanced" or something...

    Lots of other ways to diminish culture as well, I think (I also liked to see buildings providing negative culture...).
    Taking in mind that we were discussing that there is too much culture out there...
    now, one way would be to scale the culture that's coming in,
    the other way is to counter the culture coming in not by scaling it but by sucking out somewhere else again. We probably should do both because look at the :gold: in C2C at the moment: it is scaled and it is also being sucked out again: by maintenance/upgrade/events.

    The same could be done with culture, too, imo. "maintenance" of culture being the revolution points..."upgrades" being the safepoints for cultural expansion levels (they cost culture being built or something) and event "costing" culture somewhere to trigger/not trigger would also not be bad...
     
  16. Faustmouse

    Faustmouse Deity

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    But you NEED the culture for the developing Leader Trait. Unless you want to adjust them. But why? I don't think culture is completely imbalanced right now. The only problem is when you hit a cities max culture value so it stops getting any more culture.
     
  17. DRJ

    DRJ Hedonist

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    Just imagined it as another difficulty layer for deity players ;-) I figure, it would be a game option, anyway - if it ever would be made which I doubt :mischief:
     
  18. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Making reductions in culture so strong they could cause a city to go into the negative may not be right, due to DL. But DL could probably benefit from some more culture balance throughout the ages - and we've not used - :culture: as a building penalty in hardly any cases I can think of which really would be just as appropriate in many cases as negative Espionage, Research, and Gold. I don't think it'd be bad to review our buildings for some good applications of negative culture here and there.
     
  19. LumenAngel

    LumenAngel King

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    But it's a BIG problem when the max come during early medieval era dor all your prehistorical cities... And nort only me, nearly all capital of starting civ are legendary (or near legendary).
    And with traits, by staring with no traits, I already have my 6th traits before Renaissance...
     
  20. Faustmouse

    Faustmouse Deity

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    It won't come so fast. I got it in late Renaissance and I build literaly EVERY Single wonder and building in my city. It was also the holy city of every religion, had every cathedral and was really maxed out.
    But I think, the upper limit of culture has to be rised in the future anyways.
     

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