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Top 5 Cities Screen of the real world

Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by ivory, May 17, 2003.

  1. Knight-Dragon

    Knight-Dragon Unhidden Dragon Retired Moderator

    Jun 25, 2001
    You can't be further fr the truth. Since the Han, Confucianism had taken a strong hold on the Chinese and it disdains military activitiy. To the extent, during the Southern Song dynasty (the most Confucianist of all), they had to take in beggars, convicts and vagrants into the army, 'cause ordinary Chinese simply refused to fight in the army, despite the national danger of invasion.

    As you shld know, when NS was started in Singapore, the PAP had to do a lot of groundwork to even convince the Singaporean Chinese parents to let their sons participate, for national security reasons.

    It may look that way for now, but I think it's only nationalism and/or patriotism.

    Care to explain further?

    The Chinese govt took great care to try to preserve as much of it as possible (it is a great tourist attraction), but there's no way they can guard all of it, fr ignorant villagers carting away the stonework to build their housing and the like... It's just too long, and much had already been destroyed in previous wars, chaos and the like.
  2. scotland_no1

    scotland_no1 Jimmy Hat Salesman

    Apr 20, 2003
    Edinburgh, Scotland

    and scotland our capital is 3500 years old..outdating rome by 800 years
  3. scotland_no1

    scotland_no1 Jimmy Hat Salesman

    Apr 20, 2003
    Edinburgh, Scotland
    personally i think paris is much higher than london. paris has so many more momuments and structure. and the french ar renound for their culture
  4. Nad

    Nad Known Troublemaker

    Oct 1, 2002
    London, UK
    can't believe how many people have put New York in the top 5:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear....

    Jerusalem is a very interesting city because it's importance is solely in religion.

    I'd agree with most of the others people have listed, Rome, Athens, Beijing etc, but I'd say the most important: Istanbul.
  5. Doc Tsiolkovski

    Doc Tsiolkovski Deity

    May 4, 2003
    Köln, Cologne, Colonia. Finally.
    I’m rather surprised how many people put recently found cities in the top 5 also. From a Civ3 POV, there are clear criteria for the RL top 5:

    1) The city must be old.
    2) The city must have important cultural improvements or wonders for a substantial time. Short time occupation like during WW2 shouldn’t count, but longer occupations very well.
    3) The city must be owned now by that civilisation that did produce most of the culture.

    That leaves us with a rather small number of candidates.

    Capitals for more than 1000 years and still or again part of that particular nation (Cultural value 2/ turn):

    London (I know, founded by Celts, than Roman, Celts again, Germanic tribes, Danish, Norman. But the people since the Anglo- Saxon times were essentially the same. Similar issues are true for other cities mentioned in this category), Paris, Rome, Beijng ( despite a long Mongolian occupation), Xi’an

    Capitols for little less than 1000 years, but outstanding religious/ scientific centre:

    Tokyo/ Edo, Cairo, Mexico City/ Tenochtitlan (if we consider it as ‘Aztec’ again), Kiev, Seoul

    Not a Capital, but outstanding religious/ scientific centre:

    Santiago de Compostella, Mekka, Medina

    This may be surprisingly few, but all other choices have been captured, most of them more than one time.
    Some explanations: Jerusalem was hardly ever more than 500 years in the hands of one civ. Bagdhad was essentially razed by the Mongols and founded again at the same spot later. All of India was repeatedly captured (Moguls, White Huns, English). Istanbul/ Constantinopel would qualify, if the Italians would recapture it now :D

    Owning a Wonder:
    The Great Wall, Sun Tzu’s, Magellan’s Voyage, Universal Suffrage, Hoover Dam, ToE, Cure, Longevity, Heroic Epic, Iron Works, Battlefield Med, Apollo Program, Manhattan Project, Missile Defence, Mil Academy, and Intelligence Agency are all not located in city (or can be found in a number of cities, like the Small Wonders).
    Some Wonders are razed: Hanging Gardens, Great Library, Great Lighthouse (ok, a small part of it is still there, as a fortress, but hardly producing culture now), Colossus, Oracle

    That leaves us with:

    Pyramids: Cairo (Gizeh, exactly, but nowadays part of Cairo)
    Sistine Chapel: Rome
    Copernicus Observatory: Frauenberg/ Frombork
    Leonardo’s Workshop: Most likely Milan
    Bach’s: Leipzig
    Newton’s: Oxford
    Smith’s: London
    Shakespeare’s Theatre: London
    UN: New York
    Forbidden Palace: Beijng
    Pentagon: Washington
    Wall Street: New York

    Let’s assume all major cities now have a Colosseum/ Sports Arena, Research Lab, and a modern day university and cathedral (culture per turn: 11). While it’s quite easy to calculate the culture/ turn, it’s more difficult to get the total culture.

    Considering the culture produced from the particular improvements/ wonders, the Top 5 are clearly:

    London (Palace: 2, Temple: 4, Library: 6, Smith’s: 3, Shakespeare’s: 8; total of 21 + 11 = 32 per turn)
    Paris (Palace: 2, Temple: 4, Library: 6, but a University that’s close to double, Cathedral: 6; only 26/turn, but high total)
    Cairo (Palace: 1, Temple: 4, Library: 6, University: 8, Cathedral: 6, Pyramids: 8; total of 31/ turn)
    Beijing: (Palace: 1, Temple: 2, Library: 3, not doubled thanks to the Mongol occupation, Forbidden Palace: 2; 17/ turn, but high total, since most improvements had already doubled before the Mongol invasion)
    Rome: (Palace: 1, Temple: 4, Library: 6, Cathedral: 6, Sistine: 6; 31/ turn, high total)

    As said, total culture is hard to calculate, but the final standings are most likely:

    1) Cairo (the Pyramids make it)
    2) Rome
    3) London (unless we consider Oxford as University of London, than it would be second)
    4) Beijing
    5) Paris ( only French for about 1200 years, shorter than Beijing is ‘Chinese’).

    Compare that to New York: Palace: 0, Temple: 2, Library: 3, Wall Street: 2, UN: 4; total of 21/ turn, but only if we assume a University, and less than 400 years around.
  6. Plexus

    Plexus Architeuthidae puericomedentis

    Dec 29, 2001
    S. Calif., U.S.A.
    Ah, yes, Edo bcame the capital of the Shogunate in 1605, but the Emperor still ruled from Kyoto.
  7. Oddible

    Oddible signal / noise > 1

    Apr 7, 2002
    Vancouver, BC
    Clarity on the Tokyo / Edo issue:

    History of Tokyo

    "The present city was founded in the 12th cent. as the village of Edo (also Yedo or Yeddo) [estuary]. A local warlord, Edo Taro Shigenada (whose family, according to tradition, probably took the name Edo from their place of residence) built a fort there.

    On Apr. 11, 1868, the last Tokugawa shogun surrendered Edo Castle to the imperial forces. The emperor, restored to power, made Edo his capital, renaming the city Tokyo [eastern capital] as distinguished from Kyoto, since then often called Saikyo [western capital]. "
  8. MadScot

    MadScot Brandy's back!

    Jun 5, 2002
    La Belle Province
    FWIW, here's a graphic of the relative weight an improvement or wonder's culture rating has, with "1" = 1 turn's worth of culture. Note that the early (pre-1000BC) items get a huge boost from the doubling of the 20th century turns. (I picked 2000AD as my end date).

    I worked out some cultural values, for a few illustrative cases:

    Hypothetical US super-city
    Founded 1700Ad with all then-current improvements, gains Research Lab in 1900AD, every US small wonder and all 4 "US" Great Wonders (SETI, Hoover, UN, Manhattan).
    Total culture points in 2000AD 4125

    Hypothetical 'minor' ancient capital
    Founded 3000BC with Temple, Library added circa 10AD. No other improvements whatsoever.
    Total culture points in 2000AD 4440

    I think that pretty much 'proves' that the ancient cities have a huge edge.

    Major European city, No Wonders
    I selected Paris, as there are no obviously French wonders in the game. I gave it a Palace, Temple, Cathedral, Library and University at various stages from 500AD onwards (a guesstimate in each case, since I was at work at lunchtime). I didn't give them a Research lab or a Colosseum, and I stopped the culture clock at 1940AD (German occupation - in civ terms the post-Napoleonic 'occupation' I didn't consider significant).
    Total culture points in 1940AD 3845

    Major European City, with Wonders
    I would suggest London would be similar to Paris, but the clock keeps ticking to 2000AD and one or two wonders might be allocated. Probably pushes the total to near 5000pts in 2000AD

    Obviously any ancient city with wonders which remained under it's own control for a long time also should score quite highly. It's easy to tell that no modern city has a chance. When did anyone hear of a 20k win by a city founded in the Industrial period of the game?

    Attached Files:

  9. Student Driver

    Student Driver Chieftain

    Mar 27, 2003
    We are talking about the CURRENT TOP 5. Not Top 5 throughout history. However, it is still no easier.

    1. Culture
    2. History
    3. Capitol / Seat of Power (Historical or current)
    4. Population
    5. Population Diversity
    6. Prosperity
    7. Most Traveled
    8. World Wonders
    9. Amazing Structures
    10. Socio-Political Climate (Are people happy?)

    Taken from a list of more than fifty cities from all over the world:

    My Top 5 Cities of 2003:

    1. Rome, Italy
    Summary - To quote the game: "Ruler of too many places to mention", and so does Rome rule the factors. Rome truly has everything. On a point scale from 0 - 30, Rome scored 28.

    2. Paris, France
    Summary - What Top 5 cities list can be complete without Paris? One of the top tourism destinations in the world, Paris features the Eiffel Tower and the Arc de Triumph (spelling?), as well as being the Seat of Power of one of the most influential European nations in history. On a point scale from 0 - 30, Paris scored 26.

    3. New York City, USA
    Summary - New York, while a young metropolis compared to the others on this list, it has amassed thousands of years worth of importance in that short time. It`s the most highly diversified population on Earth, the second highest population total, and has had huge influence on the world in the Twentieth Century. On a point scale from 0 - 30, New York scored 26.

    4. Kuala Lampur, Malaysia
    Summary - Kuala Lampur scored very high along with the rest of the list-makers, but it sticks out because it is the most prosperous city in it`s region. As testimony to this, Kuala Lampur features the two tallest buildings in the world, the Petrona Towers. It also has a highly diverse population bringing many various ethnic cultures to the scene. On a point scale from 0 - 30, Kuala Lampur scored 26.

    5. London, United Kingdom
    Summary - London is another city like Rome that has just about everything. There is a rich and long history and a lot of culture. What kept London at the bottom of this list is it`s current state of economic decline.

    Other notables:
    City (score 0 - 30) - Why it did`nt make the list

    Jerusalem (25) - It was really close, but the current Israeli-Palestinian Conflict keeps the score down.

    Istanbul (23) - This city has become stagnant in the recent centuries due to Islamic Theocratic rule in Turkey.

    Tokyo (23) - The issues with Tokyo are high population density that leaves streets congested and being in the "ring of fire" of the Pacific that is high risk for Earthquakes and Tsunamis.

    My Top 5 Cities made the top five, because they scored exceptionally in every catergory and beyond that have and continue to be great centers of human civilization. Other cities have been of great importance, but their time has either past or is currently passing.
  10. America444

    America444 Coming Back To Life

    Feb 19, 2003
    I would have to say
    1 Rome
    2 Jeruselum
    3 Cairo
    4 Paris
    5 New York
  11. Pangur Bán

    Pangur Bán Deconstructed

    Jan 19, 2002
    @Doc Tsiolkovski: Smith's TC would be Glasgow, not London, a city which, after all, was the 6th largest city in Europe in the 19th century (I know Smith was in the 18th) and the place where Adam Smith was educated and spent most his life.

    If you want to argue the point, go here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53338
  12. Student Driver

    Student Driver Chieftain

    Mar 27, 2003
    Again, we are talking about the CURRENT TOP 5. Not the Top 5 for the 18th or 19th Century.
  13. earendil 1

    earendil 1 The Halfelven

    Mar 8, 2003
    Richmond, Virginia
    I am not talking about the greatest city screens here, just the ones with the most impact on history:

    1. Jerusalem
    2. Rome
    3. Bejing
    4. Mecca
    5. Babylon
    6. Paris
    7. Athens
    8. London
    9. New York
    10. Medina

    For the Current top 5:
    1. Paris
    2. New York
    3. Tokyo
    4. Beijing
    4. London
    5. Rome

    But if you want the ones with the most cultural impact that exist today:
    3.New York
  14. happypanda

    happypanda Chieftain

    May 19, 2003
    Wouldn't New York be counted as originally an English city in the game ?
  15. aaglo

    aaglo Furioso!

    Jan 27, 2003
    Planet Baal
    1. Rome
    2. Nanking
    3. Athens
    4. Moscow
    5. London
  16. Dr Jimbo

    Dr Jimbo Undefeated

    Feb 19, 2003
    I think you're being a bit over-picky, Doc.
    I'm sure Magellan's Voyage belongs in Lisbon, or Oporto, or wherever he set out from. ToE is wherever Darwin was when he wrote the thing - Oxford/London looking bettter and better. I'm sure the Hoover Dam is within the radius of some city (depends what size your wolrd map is, I suppose!)
    Any number of places could lay claim to a Heroic Epic - we could assign Homer to some Greek city, although I think he wandered a bit. The Epic of Gilgamesh would be Sumerian, but Babylonian is close enough, and would have been built just a few turns into the game. (Just how early has anyone ever got a leader and built this?)
    Arguments could be made for some of the others too, but I should get to work.
    Great thread!
  17. Knight-Dragon

    Knight-Dragon Unhidden Dragon Retired Moderator

    Jun 25, 2001
    As a Malaysian national, I'm flattered that someone will think so highly of our capital (which I had never seen much of, BTW :lol: ), but let's be realistic.

    Most prosperous city in the region will be Singapore, not Kuala Lumpur. Not by a wide margin. KL is also a new city; only established in the late 19th century by Chinese tin miners as the British occupation of Malaya got under way in ernest.

    There're other more deserving candidates... ;)
  18. Student Driver

    Student Driver Chieftain

    Mar 27, 2003
    Well, I appreciate your response, XIII.

    However, when I speak about prosperity, I speak primarily of it`s growth. While Singapore, in many ways, could be considered more prosperous, I believe Singapore is more or less stagnant in it`s overall growth. Look at it this way. If I were considering making a huge investment in either Kuala Lampur or Singapore, I would choose Kuala Lampur because it is growing much faster than Singapore.
  19. Communist Rebel

    Communist Rebel Fighting Against Poverty

    May 21, 2003
    not in our country. we are proud of our communist government however. we do not have pepsi, cola and nike (obviously because of the embargo) but most of our country couldnt even afford these things because of the embargo. i would hardly say the USA had such a positive influence over the world so that is why none of their cities will go in my top 5. americans fail to realize how many countries and people in the world do not like their views or ideas.

  20. Communist Rebel

    Communist Rebel Fighting Against Poverty

    May 21, 2003
    then you certainly cannot include any us cities that you mentioned earlier..the us economy is doing very badly aswell, u cant name any english cities for the same reason, nor most western countries

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