Top X reasons you can't beat Noble.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by xanadux, Oct 26, 2007.

  1. eewallace

    eewallace King

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    [Hangs head in shame]

    Yeah, okay, I had to play the Khmer because of the cool color and the pretty ballista elephants...
     
  2. SenhorDaGuerra

    SenhorDaGuerra Prince

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    before i understood what was going on in the game, this used to kill me every time:

    - how in hell are all the other civs 7-8 tech ahead of me? its only 100AD!!
     
  3. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

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    It's a good idea, but somehow going into depth for each "wrong" is futile.
    I'd stick to links to games (SGs, GotM spoilers, walkthroughs,...) where either the "wrong" or the total opposite (like having 10 workers for 2 cities, rather than 2 workers for 10 cities) is visible .
    Of course, there aren't always examples, but if for a given "wrong" there aren't examples, it may not be such a big deal ;).

    one more thing : I'm pretty sure I can beat noble although doing any (except the 13, but I've read a SG where the plan was to follow the result of a dice roll :lol:) of those wrongs, maybe even several in the same game ;).
     
  4. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    I agree with points 1-2

    Point 3 is not always the case. In OBSOLETES wonderspam/setteld GP strat he typically limits cities to 2 early one. I have also played games with few early cities and done well.

    Agree points 4-6

    Point 7: Again, not always the case.

    Point 8: Too many wonders IF it affects the economy and military. Otherwise and excellent source of GPs as well as the wonder benefit.

    Agree point 9

    Point 10: Disagree. I very often go after one of these 2 if I start with Mysticism. Certain times it is not wise but an early religion, followed by running a priest specialist for a Prophet and early Shrine is great for an early stronge start.

    Point 11: Disagree. I started the game doing this, stopped and went with BW/AH for military, went back because of Snatty's thread. There is absolutely nothing wrong with beelining archery early provided your have some worker techs to use first.

    Points 12-14: I agree, especially point 13.

    Point 15: I do not agree. A holy shrine gold is a must have if you have an early religion. I will so though that it is not worth wrecking a GP farm over trying to get the prophet.

    Point 16-17: Agree

    Point 18: Disagree. You can win without using the whip, it is not essential. I find myself using it less and less in BTS because of the cost and the random slave revolts.

    Point 19: Agree

    Point 20: Disagree. CG are best for efending archery units except crossbows. I agree if you are referring to gunpowder units.


    Some other additions

    You do not build and work cottages.

    You do not know how to feed and use a specialist

    You do not use great people efficiently.

    You do not set up good trade routes or connect your cities via roars/rivers quickly.

    You go to war without a planned attack

    You stay at war too long

    You let a beaten foe live for another day

    You go to war without enough troops.

    You delay war because you are waiting to tech the next available military tech.

    Good thread.
     
  5. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    Some others.

    You give up if one AI has a tech edge.

    You become smug and sloppy if you have a tech edge.

    You play the same leader over and over again withouut trying a different trait combo.

    You try to make nice and be friends with Toku and Monty.

    You trade all your techs to Mansa and wonder why you lose the space race.

    You build the UN when nbody likes you (Hey, I did this!!!)

    You let one AI dominate the map with vassals as you try to appease them (Hey, I still do this on occasion).

    You fail to listen to advice in these forums.
     
  6. xanadux

    xanadux King

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    Thanks for the input mad, a few good ones their I hadn't thought of.

    And I'll say again ... not all of these are bad all of the time, and several of them are perfectly reasonable fairly often, but IMO, always doing any one of them is a mistake.

    Never using slavery in one game is often good, never using slavery in any game is a mistake.

    I didn't say getting a shrine was bad, but trying to make sure you have one every game you play is a big mistake.

    Things like you don't expand enough, you build too many buildings or wonders are relative to situation. What is too much or too little for one game is just right for another. I'm mostly referring to chronic problems here.

    I probably didn't word the one on City Garrison very well. But I do stand by using CG as the promotion most often used when available as a mistake. This is because if a player does this they are making one of 2 mistakes ... either fighting defense wars by defending cities too much, or garrisoning their cities with too many units or too many defensive units. If a player fights wars defending from cities frequently (and I don't mean a city just captured), that is a problem.
     
  7. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    Understood. Then I agree with most of your comments provided that people understand there are certain times when those strats can be used.

    2 I just do not agree with

    Getting an early religion if you start with Mysticism. AT nobel and below you are pretty much guarenteed getting one unless you have no commerce tile. Now saying you founf Judaism AFTER founding Hinduism or Buddhism, that's another stary. An early religion is a good thing in my book.

    Beelining archery. Again, as long as you have at least one worker tech or seafood and fishing. I think better is to say you are neglecting BW and AH, or better yet BW for chopping/slavery.
     
  8. Kesshi

    Kesshi Emperor

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    Hello madscientist,

    I think we have a different definition of "friend." In Civ I consider a friend anyone whom isn't currently attacking me. Toku and Monty are so eager to attack, I'll swap to whichever religion they are just to 'befriend' them. Even if I only have one city with that religion, I'll slaverly + organized religion and whip out some missionaries to spread it around. This keeps them off my back, and with enough money either one can be persuaded to go to war with almost anyone. I once played a Prince game where Monty asked me for a defensive pact. It may have been in part because I threw him about 7000-8000 gold that game between him demanding tribute, bribing him to go to war with others, and simply giving him 1-2 gpt as a gift. (I think that can net you a "+1 Our trade relations have been fair" and is easily worth it if you really like someone.)

    Befriending Toku and/or Monty aren't wrong, just realize it won't be easy, but the rewards can be worth the work. If you're going for some sort of a peaceful win they can be rewarding partners.

    Besides, it's fun having a big bully as your best friend. :)
     
  9. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Deity

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    This is of course true, but Obsolete can beat Noble. "When you win twenty in the show, you can let the fungus grow back on your shower shoes, and the press will think you're colorful."

    Failing to do things the easy way is a mistake, even in those cases where a more advanced player can find compensation.
     
  10. Belisar

    Belisar Defender of Byzanz

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    I generally agree also I would not say mistake but less efficient.
    A number of strategies can work, even some dubious ones, they are just not the best.
    And there is of course a difference between self-restriction (like building only 2 cities for the competition) and weak play (building the same 2 cities because one expands not fast enough and the land is taken by the AI)
     
  11. Cleverbeans

    Cleverbeans Chieftain

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    I'm no expert, but I can definitely beat Noble, and I disagree with some of the points you've made. I'll go through them with my comments.

    What do you mean by developing? Do you mean building defense? Working Tiles? Creating buildings? I think as long as you have a plan for you development early on, you can do any of these things successfully at Noble.

    For example in when I'm playing Rome, I can either build a worker first, or a warrior, or a barracks for my rush games.

    Fair enough, you might as well maximize every tile you're working.

    These tips are too vague to be of any use. They would need to be fleshed out to be helpful.

    I think this needs to be fleshed out as well. I've beaten Noble games without specializing my economy, and simply building markets in every city (no courthouses) and building cottages only on tiles that I wasn't able to build farms/pastures/mines on.

    I would probably change this to "You feel uncomfortable with warfare, and are often unprepared for it." I have beaten Noble with one defender in each city, they just happened to be the best defenders in the world with well thought out promotions. Quality over quantity is viable if you have a tech lead. Military is certainly important to your survival at any level however and should be included in your post.

    This can be removed, I built every possible building in every possible city on several of my Noble wins. It's certainly not optimal, but it can be done without a negative effect.

    I would change this to "You build wonders without a clear plan." For someone looking at a cultural victory the value of many wonders is clear, however not at the expense of military in a time of war for example.

    Founding early religions is not going to stop you from winning Noble. In fact, you can beat it without any problems even if you found ALL the religions.

    Do people really do this?? Maybe change this to "You fail to plan out your tech path based on your circumstances" for broader applicability.

    This should probably be fleshed out, mainly what you mean by early.

    I would change this to "You don't have a flexible plan to develop your empire and win the game", and I would move it to the first spot on the list as it's clearly the most important.

    I would change this to "Your tech path doesn't support your plan." Beelining the religious techs when you're trying for an early rush, or pushing for Iron Working when you're trying for a cultural victory are simply don't help achieve the goal.

    I would remove this, making a shrine a priority will not force you to lose at Noble.

    I'd change this to "You don't take advantage of diplomacy" as someone might think it's important, but make foolish decisions like gifting too many techs, or letting the other give you Meditation for Metal Casting.

    This needs to be fleshed out, I've seen good arguments for leaving forests till later in the game so you get more production out of them if your plan doesn't require them right away. See Orion's Noble game for an example.

    This can be removed, I've beaten Noble without whipping, although slavery certain does help.

    This is fine. I might reword it as "You don't mix and match civics to support your plan."

    I fail to see how this hinders you from winning at Noble. Most of my defenders in space race games started as archers/longbows with this promotion. I would remove this.

    Those are my thoughts on your post.
     
  12. Krick19

    Krick19 Prince

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    Are you implying that that's a bad thing? I mean those blue civs are pretty.
     
  13. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Deity

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    I would use "less efficient" were the ultimate outcome favorable. In a loss, it's a mistake. Tomato, tomato.
     
  14. xanadux

    xanadux King

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    @Cleverbeans ... read the rest of the thread.

    I think I've mentioned 4 times already that not all of these are mistakes all of the time.

    In fact there is no single one of these errors that will cause someone to lose a particular game at noble level. It is just a list of possible (POSSIBLE) errors that contribute to the problem.

    Other than #13 (you don't have a plan), you could take a very strong player at CivIV, pick half of my list and tell them they must make this mistake the entire game, and they would still usually win at noble.
     
  15. eewallace

    eewallace King

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    Having had the experience of losing on noble (fortunately I think I'm past that stage now) I think I can synthesize the nature of my problem--It wasn't the lack of a plan, but lack of adaptability. That is, I would start with, say, a leader that looked like a great choice for a cultural victory and plan accordingly, not paying sufficient attention to the fact that Shaka was immediately to my west and Ragnar to the east, etc.

    So it wasn't lack of planning, it was lack of contingency planning.
     
  16. MrFelony

    MrFelony Prince

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    These rules are like general rules for learning a language such as german. they apply most of the time, but like life, there are exceptions that you learn when you become more advanced in the subject.
     
  17. Rex rgis of Ter

    Rex rgis of Ter Me I'm a Creator

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    I build too many buildings wonders, and I bareley expand at all. I'm at Price level but I can't seem to beat it.
     
  18. TRJS

    TRJS Warlord

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    - Your married with children.

    Ok, a little off topic but could lead to:

    - You don't practice different tactics under controlled conditions in order to better understand and use them.
     
  19. SenhorDaGuerra

    SenhorDaGuerra Prince

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    how about this one:

    - you forget the game is actually a fun game because you beome obsessed with trying to beat higher and higher difficulty levels.

    if u have fun on warlord and its a challenge and when you win you get a rush (per se, its a video game for godsake) then why not stay there. whats the point of going up to prince if you are just going to get annoyed with the game?

    I've come to terms a long time ago that most of the time i play on prince because its fun. if im feeling anal retentive i'll play a monarch game, but not very often, because too much micromanaging does my fragile little brain in.

    i would however like to thank everyone for putting the effort in in all the strategy guides that have made my Civ experience more enjoyable!

    happy gaming all!!!
     
  20. Bhruic

    Bhruic Emperor

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    I think the biggest one I can think of:
    - you do things without having a clear reason for doing so

    I see that a lot in games people post - they'll move their starting settler, for example, and settle in a worse location than they started in. When asked why, there's usually a variant answer of something like "I'm not sure". If you're going to move your settler - know why you are doing it. If you are going to declare war on someone - know why you are doing it. Civ isn't a game that you can play relatively mindlessly and come out ahead, not on the higher difficulty levels. Thinking and planning are essential.

    Bh
     

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