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Tourism disappointment

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by kaltorak, Jun 25, 2013.

  1. kaltorak

    kaltorak Emperor

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    I can't wait to get my hands on the expansion, but I just watched an in-depth video about the new features, and tourism sounds really boring in my opinion.

    Let me explain: what does tourism for your empire? It really sounds like a "most points" victory, which is the only one I always have disabled. I want to win the game, but not just by adquiring a stat that doesn't do anything else than win you the game.

    - A cultural victory now, wins you the game, but you got more powerful by adquiring policies and tiles.
    - A domination victory, well, it's clear, it made you powerful, until you wiped them out.
    - A space victory, made you powerful by having the most modern technologies.
    - Even a diplomacy victory, beeing allied with city states and in good terms with nations is also useful during the game.

    But what is the usefulness of tourism? Winning a game by raising a number that doesn0t give any benefit is like winning the points victory. Wait, even worse, since more points means you have probably better/more cities/technologies/armies.

    So, did I understand correctly? Is tourism just a number you increase to win the game, and doesn't give you anything useful during the game?

    I hope I'm wrong, maybe they don't mention other uses in the video I watched.
    I don't play for the final win screen. I play for managing a nice empire, and if I do things I want them to mean something, not just raise a useless number.
     
  2. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Tourism causes large amounts of unhappiness in Civs of different ideologies, potentially flipping their cities to you.

    (Also, most sources of culture* are also sources of tourism... So if you want culture you will be getting tourism)

    *Good for social policies and defending against tourism from other civs
     
  3. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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  4. Big J Money

    Big J Money Emperor

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    1) Tourism bonuses also come with culture bonuses. So you get something good along with earning Tourism, even though the Tourism number itself doesn't have a meaning.

    That alone is a new enough mechanic to the series that I don't think it can be so easily dismissed. The closest concept I can think of was the commerce/gold link in Civ IV, but even that's very very different, gameplay-wise.

    2) Acquiring the stat isn't a passive thing. It's not as simple as build more buildings. There are more ways to get tourism than anything else in the game, and those ways are highly enjoyable. In this case, it's the ride that's the more fun part, not the destination.

    KrikkitTwo had a better point. :)
     
  5. kingchris20

    kingchris20 Wisdom Seeker

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    More or less, but maybe a little more intricate than that. You can only win cultural of your total influence surpasses all other civs total culture output. To help you get there, things like ideological differences are effected by the ideology with the most tourism out out, and those without that ideology are affected by unhappiness, up to a point where they could start losing cities to civs with the dominant ideology.


    Sooooo ninja'd! But of course archaeology has a lot to do with the amount of tourism you produce to
     
  6. Wielki Hegemon

    Wielki Hegemon Emperor

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    You haven't even tried it in a game, and you're already disappointed? :dubious:
     
  7. kaltorak

    kaltorak Emperor

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    Well, it isn't as simple as I thought, that's good. But still sounds disappointing in a way. I'm not saying it's boring to get tourism. Archaeology, great works and such sounds fun.

    But my point is, if I put some effort into archaeology or getting a great work, I want it to improve my empire. Not just increase a number that doesn't give anything but a possible victory.

    City flipping was cool in civ4, but I've read some other posts claiming that tourism only will make a city flip in some extreme circunstances. Doesn't sound like a goal for increasing tourism, just a side effect that may rarely happen.
     
  8. kaltorak

    kaltorak Emperor

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    Sounds like a prescripted typical answer without even reading the question.
     
  9. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    City flipping is sort of extreme, but the unhappiness seems to be a regular bonus (admitedly it weakens others rather than strengthening you..although other civs of your ideology can strengthen you)

    The relationship with culture seems the most important

    Artifacts/Great Works/Theming bonuses all seem to boost culture & tourism
    Hotels boost tourism... But based on culture output
    Only a few ideology tenets and the Eiffel Tower seem to give 'pure tourism'

    And ''pure culture" seems to be very limited as well
     
  10. TheMarshmallowBear

    TheMarshmallowBear Benelovent Chieftain of the BearKingdom

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    With the exception of maybe a wonder of policy, all great works/artefacts provide Culture in addition to Tourism, meaning quicker Policies.

    Not to mention, G&K had a bad feature (Espionage) which was just as lacking as you feel Tourism is.
     
  11. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    As alluded to in the other thread, how many games will this become a factor? Just like with hyped religion mechanics, it may possible to ignore and still win non-culturally at higher levels. Some depends upon how effective the AI can use this mechanic against you.
     
  12. adwcta

    adwcta King

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    I'm a bit more excited about tourism than I was for two reasons:

    1) In the new podcast up, Maddjinn basically super-hinted that it was possible to cause the AI (presumably he is playing on very high difficulty) to go into unhappiness, and to cause the AI to convert to your ideology. So, they either changed the AI-base happiness bonuses, or the Ideology happiness mechanic is as important as the normal happiness mechanic (meaning, you need both regular happiness and ideological happiness to remain a "happy" empire). This is exciting, so tourism would be useful for any type of peaceful play (where you can't just attack the civ outright).

    2) Brazil's achievement is to "Win a Diplomatic Victory." Brazil is a very very tourism-based civ. It is actually, I think, the only new tourism-based civ. Achievements basically guide play-styles the civ is designed for (India's 3-city culture; Germany/Ottoman converting barbs; Atilla's spaceship). With no direct bonuses to +gold, except for one unit that generates GAs, Brazil would presumably have to use tourism and ideology (Brazil has a +culture improvement) to get votes. I think this is pretty good evidence that tourism/ideology is at least linked to helping you get votes on the World Congress. It also hints that after converting an AI civ, they won't hate you for it (new regime, wipes out old negative diplo, etc), or tourism would make Diplo victory even harder. And of course, World Congress can in turn help you get science (spaceship, science funding) / domination (preventing people from taxing or embargoing you) victory too, abit indirectly and less effectively than Culture and Diplomatic Victory.
     
  13. Aaron90495

    Aaron90495 King

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    I think the key isn't how effectively the AI uses it; rather, it's whether the AI will be effected by it at all with its massive happiness boosts. If the AI isn't touched by Tourism, the new cultural victory could be even more impossible on high difficulties than the current one.

    Edit: Ninja'd! The stuff the previous poster mentioned is exactly what I was/am concerned about.
     
  14. asmartlittleman

    asmartlittleman Chieftain

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    One thing to consider is that the current cultural victory is very passive but also limited your game play by playing small/tall and most likely you must have a religion and take piety tree. All other VC you can play wide or tall and you are not so limited like culture victory. Tourism not only gains you a victory but when ideologies come to play you will need some to at least stop your citizens from being unhappy from other ideologies. This is the only thing extra I see from it which is not much but I think the new cultural victory as a whole is better since it does restrict you has much and is less passive. Plus if you have lots of tourism you will have lots of culture which will help your empire like you stated in the OP.
     
  15. Babri

    Babri Emperor

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    While other yields help you by making you stronger, tourism helps in putting your enemies in trouble as well as bringing you closer to victory. This has two advantages.

    1) This makes culture victory more competitive. You have to actively compete with your foes just like other victories.

    2) It is a distinct resource. It won't give you happiness or other bonuses like other resources like faith. Rather it would snatch happiness from your enemies, convince other civilizations to follow your ideology or otherwise have their cities flip to you.

    Now some may question that what is the advantage if everybody follows your ideology. Firstly it will improve your relations with other nations. Secondly you will more likely to get votes/bribe same ideology opponents to do your bidding so you practically own the World Congress.

    Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk 2
     
  16. sliverius

    sliverius Chieftain

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    after read bnw subforum, in bnw scoring system also include tourism. cmiiw
     
  17. pilot00

    pilot00 King

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    I can agree to this. If you wipe out the tourism generating threatening civ its all over.
    And given the past, the AI will have issues with generating planed tourism.
    .
     
  18. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    The point of tourism appears to be to make the culture victory interactive - it's not just a race against the enemy's tourism to score more points, it's opposed by rival civs' culture. So another civ can delay or stall your tourism progress by investing heavily in culture (or, indeed, by getting a higher tourism score).

    It's not at all like a score victory. Score victory simply rewards you for spamming cities and having more points than rivals, which mostly involves playing in a way that's suitable for other victory conditions. There is no "score victory" strategy, you don't trade going for a score victory against other game resources (as you do if prioritising, say, culture over science), and most elements of score are outside your direct control, so it's non-interactive.

    Tourism does also have marginal in-game effects - city-flipping in some cases, although I suspect this will be rare, and reduced happiness in nearby rival cities once you have an ideology. It could be better-developed in the early game, particularly as that is when you're likely to be generating a lot of Great Works, however.
     
  19. kaltorak

    kaltorak Emperor

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    Thanks all for your imput :)
     
  20. Avatan

    Avatan Warlord

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    I share kaltorak's concerns.

    So okay, if you are the world leader in tourism you can cause unhappiness to other civs (right now, it would be quite underwhelming), force them to switch ideologies (why not,ought have some synergy with WC) and to the extreme causing city flipping (most likely crappy border city but still, okay).

    But what if you are clearly not a tourism leader? You need to buff your culture to protect your influence, but tourism will at most be a side product of that process. No use and no incentive to build tourism focus buildings or polices really.

    I was hoping tourism could be used to purchase tenets, like culture SoPol, but we know it isn't the case right? Or maybe economical incentives?
     

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