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Tourism ouput needs a nerf?

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by IAIWE, Oct 15, 2019.

  1. IAIWE

    IAIWE Chieftain

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    I feel the tourism output needs to be nerfed (for the human player).

    I have played two games now with various styles, on Deity, Epic game speed, and with civilizations not really focused on culture or tourism. I did not use the event system in neither game.

    The first game was Sweden on Antarctica Thawed. I built cities aggressively and went to early wars. I went Tradition, Authority and Rationalism. I did not focus on tourism more than the usual stuff; optimising great works and always working the guilds. I won culture victory about the time I got to Telecommunications, but at that point I might aswell have won Domination victory, so I know my culture victory was just as easy as any other type. But I was influential with 3 other civs when I conquered my first capital. Just saying...

    The second game I went tall, as the Iroquios on a Pangea map. Four cities, opening with Tradition, going Statecraft second and some random openers from the others. I *never* started any wars myself and took minimal amount of cities just to peace out as soon as possible. I felt I had to play it as minimal as possible to see if I still could win cultural victory. Eventually I obtained culture victory (or, rather, got Influential (and Raising) with all AIs) about the time I got Infantry units.

    In neither of my games I used any Great Musician bombs and I never even opened Artistery. Both games won by turn 500-550.

    I will try to play a game with more focused culture/tourism AIs in the new patch and see what can come out of it.

    What are your experiences with this?
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  2. andersw

    andersw Prince

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    Cant really compare as I'm not close to diety, but if you conquer most of the world you often dominate in tourism as well.
    The second game however ... yes I think thats why culture requires telecomm so other civs have a chance to strike back.
    Before Telecom requirement it was easy to win accidental culture with for example warmonger France.
    I am however an utter beginner regarding proper culture victory play.
     
  3. IAIWE

    IAIWE Chieftain

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    I don't feel it's the tourism from Great Works that does the difference, but all the city-state quests, the events from winning overwhelming wars, etc. The normal Brave New World base game had a good balance of tourism. In Vox Populi you drown in tourism boosts.
     
    black213 likes this.
  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Can’t say it’s been that way on Immortal for me. My last two games I played tradition with plenty of great works, and did not even come close to influence with all civs.

    I do think conquest had a big impact. If your not warring heavily than I think it can be a strong challenge
     
  5. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Prince

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    I play with 12 civ maps and I find there is usually one strong culture civ (e.g. Brazil) in each game that makes me really work for my tourism victories. Usually I get a science victory first, although I also tend to win by tourism more often than by diplomacy.

    I think that perhaps some of the recent changes to the late-game specifically could use a nerf. There's a couple of new wonders (e.g. World Trade Center), and a new building (Shopping Mall) which grant tourism. I don't know if they are neccesarily too strong in their own right, but if you build a number of late-game wonders (like Cristo Redentor) I think that increases overall tourism output greatly.
     
  6. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    I think major problem is the tourism by trade routes thing.
    If you finish a trade route to someone, you not only get tourism with this civ, but also half the value to every other civ. This was done to neglect to some degree the option to completly stop an enemy culture victory by simply declaring war to the other civ.

    Also, the tourism you generate by finishing a trade route is the sum of half tourism and half culture. As long as your culture is high enough, the amount of tourism output is neglegible.
     
  7. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I find tourism a lot easier to win that any other win condition on Deity. I don't think forcing me to wait until telecommunications addressed this at all.
    The link between total culture output and bonus tourism is why historic events were so strong for so long, and its why huge empires can win by tourism accidentally.
     
    swapoer likes this.
  8. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    Currently almost done a 5 city Mayan Tradition / Artistry / Rationalism / Freedom game, and I think tourism / wonder spam is in a fine spot. People have to account for all the different factors that can alter the course of any given tourism game. In my current instance, I've had a direct Mongol neighbor that has really stunted my ability to consistently pump out the necessary tourism I've needed in order to achieve influential with other strong culture / tourism civs, like a wonder spamming India that I have no access to across the world. There are other compromises that come with choosing the CV route, including relatively low production in all other cities that I'm not necessarily able to boost with internal routes, because I need those routes to be external for the tourism. Also, these routes are easy enough to pillage, and the increased cost of caravans and cargo ships (which you can only build so fast in the low hammer cities) through the eras really hinders you if those routes are lost.
     
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  9. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Prince

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    Sorry, what do you mean by increased cost of caravans and trade routes?

    Edit: also, personally I love tourism from trade routes from a thematic perspective. I never really paid attention to the relative magnitude of tourism from different events.
     
  10. TranceBlossom

    TranceBlossom Chieftain

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    Idk what mods you're using but these are not "vanilla" VP buildings
     
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  11. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Prince

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    Are you sure? I'm not using any mods that add buildings (that I'm aware of). I have Community Events (which is made for VP) and five or six things like Quick Turns, Really Advanced Setup, and Historical Religions. That's it.
     
  12. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    They aren't in my games, I have no other mods installed at all.
     
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  13. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Agreed.
     
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  14. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Historic Event tourism is reduced by empire size - sure, more = better on the whole, but like most expansion-related things in VP there's a tourism tax for each new city. I actually haven't seen a 'big' empire win tourism in quite some time - typically they win DV or Science before Tourism is even close.

    G
     
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  15. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    How good is the AI on "focusing" tourism? The trick is identifying your culture rival (aka the last civ that will resist your tourism), and use Great Musicians, Diplomats, and Trade Routes (though the TR change has made this less important, it still helps to focus your TRs when you can) to finish the job. I know the AI can do this things generally, but does it know to focus on its final opponent?
     
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Yes, it does. For the AI, however, if they're not able to get a solid tourism lead (say, 2-3 influenced civs) by modern, the grand strategy AI begins to favor science or diplo as viable alternatives. This is why sometimes you'll see a civ suddenly spit out dozens of diplo units all at once and/or become very touchy about CSs around the time of ideologies.

    G
     
  17. Edaka

    Edaka King

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    Those are from the Community Events mod.
     
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  18. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Does trade route tourism also get hit by a penalty for city number?
     
  19. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Yeah.
     
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  20. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Prince

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    Thanks! I was at a loss to understand what was going on :).
     

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