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Tourism

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Apr 6, 2021.

  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Alright, since people can't help themselves (and the poll is pretty one sided at the moment), here is your thread to discuss tourism.

    What is "Going Tourism"
    So one of the desires for buffing tourism is to make it more enticing for people to optimize it. But what does "getting more Tourism" actually look like in game?
    Spoiler :

    Ancient - Medieval
    • Great Works and Writer/Artist Guilds (already high priority)
    • Building of Caravansaries/Harbors, focus of Trade Routes on quick completing ETRs rather than raw yields
    • Ensure 1 TR to all civs as much as possible.
    • Religious Policies: Stupas, WoP, WoT, Sacred Sites
    • Creation of Holy Sites (already pretty useful)
    • Building Arenas (already high priority)
    • Fealty -> Shared Religion Push
    • Statecraft -> Focus on CS Trade Routes (already incentivized through influence)
    • Artistry -> Wonders (already incentivized)
    • High Culture -> Tourism through historic events (high culture already incentivized)

    So honestly, even if Tourism was stronger in the early game...there aren't a lot of ways to actually "go for it" that I am not already doing. It really comes down to faster Caravansaries and certain Religious beliefs.

    G has made the statement in several Tourism threads over the years (often to shoot down my ideas ;) that Tourism doesn't need boosting, as its simply a rider to the things you should already do anyway. For this phase of the game....he is right for the most part. So should we actually boost tourism in ways that effect the early game, or maybe just do a simple balance pass on a few beliefs and maybe a building?

    Renaissance - Industrial
    • Musician Guilds and Great Works (already incentivized)
    • Theming Bonuses (already incentivized)
    • Use of Diplomats instead of Spies/Thieves/CS Influencers
    • Focus on Open Borders (incentivized at this phase of the game due to exploration needs)
    • World Religion WC policy (already incentivized)
    • More Zoo building (instead of just forested areas)
    • Much more hotel building
    • Archeologist Rush (already incentivized)
    So again here, there aren't a lot of levers we have that we aren't already pulling. We could make some adjustments to diplomats, hotels, and maybe zoos, not touch tourism, and you would see the same overall impact.


    Modern - Atomic
    • Ideology Choices and Policies
    • Musician Bombs over more Great Works of Music
    • WC Tourism Proposals (International Games, Passports, Travel Ban)
    • Maintaining Open Borders, ETRs, and Franchises in the face of growing diplomatic hostility
    • Building Cristo Redentor
    • Franchises (already incentivized)
    • Prioritize Techs (Radio, Computers)
    • Stadiums (might already be incentivized with the recent WLTKD change, too early to know if that change has made stadiums good without more tourism incentive)
    • Airports (already decently incentivized, though not necessarily in every city)
    I would argue Modern is where the "choice for Tourism" truly manifests. At this point I am considering sacrifices for tourism, and the yield is no longer just "for the ride". I may change my tenants to tourism focused ones, adjust my tech path, may sacrifice the culture of great works for bombs, build Cristo over another wonder, build buildings that have no real value to me outside of tourism, or give up desired WC policies to shift the tourism balance.

    I think this is the point where Tourism incentives could actually manifest into truly new gameplay decisions.


    Information
    • Prioritize Telecommunications and Internet Techs
    • Build CN Tower
    Realistically, at this point in the game you are either trying to ride the T train to a CV, or you are finishing up your WC. Tourism incentives aren't really going to affect your decision making, either you have gotten what you are going to get out of tourism and have moved on, or you are already vacuuming up every bit of it you can get.



    Summary: Overall, the only real tourism "incentives" that would realistically shape game play decisions are ones that effect the Modern/Atomic Era. Before that, even with greater incentives, I am already incentivized to do the things that get tourism. Weak spots could be addressed with other small changes instead of systemic tourism changes.

    Popular is the Key: So I used a lot of words, but what am I getting at? Historically we have focused on scaling benefits for Tourism, but I don't think we need to do that. Exotic is easy to get, and doesn't involve tourism decisions, it just "often happens". Influential takes a lot of work and providing enough incentives for a non-CV player to go influential maybe too good for CV focused players.

    I think its Popular where we should focus our attention. Popular is achievable in the mid game with a strong religious push early (aka stupas or Sacred Sites), and late mid game with some tourism focus but its not necessarily automatic until the massive Tourism modifiers in late atomic/information.

    So instead of bonus that are "X per level of influence", I would rather see a "Big bonus A upon receiving Popular". Similar to that Autocracy policy, I think popular is the key to better Tourism incentives.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
  2. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    One thing I've considered is giving all specialists +1 Tourism, or perhaps giving all cities a native +1 tourism per x citizens (representing the natural tourism created by large metropolises).

    Another 'fun' bonus might be to give out permanent bonuses to tourism for every completed city-state quest, or perhaps the largest city in the world should get a big tourism boost? Dunno, just spitballing ways to add tourism without just piling it on buildings/policies.

    G
     
  3. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So taking a page out of your playbook from many debates we have had over the years, we should look at various mechanics that the player doesn't prioritize. Aka the rider effect, if tourism is just along for the ride on something you would be doing anyway,...well then we are just doing yield inflation. But if we find areas that would represent a sacrifice to commit to, well now we have an interesting strategic decision. Now of course for it to actually be a choice, we of course have to make tourism more powerful or its "um yield X vs tourism? I'll take yield X thank you very much". So there are two areas to look at: How to make tourism more meaningful, and how to add tourism levers to give players strategic choices.

    1) Specialists +1 tourism: Specialists are already really good, people use them frequently, so much that we put a happiness cap on them to limit their usefulness. Don't see a need here.

    2) City State Quests: CS Quests are already really good, especially in the early and mid game. So I don't think we need to add a bonus to all quests. However, perhaps for certain quests. For example, the TR to a City State is pretty weak in the early game (and tourism wise I am giving up the tourism I could get from sending it to another civ). But if the quest added some tourism on top, ok that's something....maaaaaybe I'll give up the normal TR yields to get the quest.

    3) City Population: I personally wouldn't go with just pure city pop, growth is already rewarded. However, the concept of "big growth benefits" I could get behind. For example, maybe at Pop 20 a city become a "Metropolis" and gains a flat +15 to tourism (subject to balance). At Pop 30, a "Megalopolis" (yes putting on my Sim City hat here), gain +45. Pop 40, +90! (note its not a flat scaler, both because its exponentially more sacrifice to hit those high numbers, and because you won't see those numbers until late in the game, so they have to be big to matter).


    So other thoughts along this area.

    4) A new "public work-esque" building, called "Beautification" or something. Complete project for flat tourism bonus. Aka sacrifice hammers for tourism.

    5) Allow diplo units (either through policy or building) to "settle" in opponent's land for tourism bonus (a minor GM if you will). Again converting hammers and gold into tourism.

    6) Provide tourism for local (not global happiness). Aka rewards for keeping those satellites really happy, instead of just enough to stem off growth penalties. Might need some counterbalance in capitals.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
  4. InkAxis

    InkAxis Prince

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    I agree, there should be a way to get tourism in the early game, but it has to be *at a sacrifice to other things* and not just a "on the top" bonus.

    A good example is a GM bulb, other than the insignificant happiness all you get is tourism, and you are using up a GP.

    So for example I think there should be a way to get a Musician earlier in the game, for which you can bulb and get a high tourism value early.
    A couple buildings that specifically give tourism would be nice (but again, not just as a buff to existing buildings 'on top', tourism has to be the main factor)
    Also one of the monopolies could give tourism.

    I agree with most of @Stalker0 's points, here are my thoughts on some of them:

    There could be a reward for having the biggest city.
    In fact, you know that "Aristotle has completed his greatest work, the list of the most X nations!" list thing that pops up occasionally? The person in first place on that list could be given a reward with tourism. But that would require reworking some of the categories and also how often it appears.

    We'd need to be really careful if we do this, DV is already about purchasing and making as many diplo units as possible, we don't want that to also become the optimal way to play CV. It would need to be a limited number of times and also something specific.
     
  5. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    A few tourism concepts I like so far:
    • Economic siphon - gain/lose small % of GPT (scaling by era?) based off influence level between civs.
    • Tourism process (unlocked at "Guilds"); Enginseer's "Bare Necessities" mod already has this available to integrate.
    • Biggest city list pops up every X amount of turns (or when a new era is first reached by a civ), granting significant boost to tourism for that city/empire -- something like the top 3 cities gain a tourism % boost (1st = 50%, 2nd = 25%, 3rd = 10%) for X turns.
    • Metropolis / Megalopolis tourism bonus for reaching certain pop.
    • I'd be cool with specialists getting +1 tourism, but only on writers/artists/musicians, and it'd have to be a bonus gained exclusively from a certain policy/belief.
    • World Wonders carry a base tourism of 1. Yes they bring early culture, but these are precisely the 'buildings' that deserve to yield flat tourism -- "Sacred Sites" could be tweaked to scale the tourism from wonders by era (e.g. if each wonder has 1 base tourism, with SS they would yield 2 tourism in Classical, 3 in Medieval, etc., making the belief more valuable than it currently is; Reformation doesn't usually come until mid-game, so it wouldn't affect early influence). "World and Natural Wonders gain +1 tourism each, scaling with era".
    • Diplomats (spy screen, not the units themselves) grant additional 10% tourism bonus for being stationed in foreign capital; placed on Statecraft finisher.
    • Buff the open borders % bonus from "Cultural Exchange" up from 10%, in order to be on par with Fealty's 25% from shared religion, or Statecraft's % bonus to TR; it's weird that Artistry receives the least bonus here compared to the other 2 Medieval trees.
    • The Zoo revolves around land based yields to forest/jungle, but where's the love for my coastal citizens? It's okay, Supreme Leader plans to rectify this issue with his glorious "Aquarium for VP" modmod! That is, if I can ever complete it...
    I'm fairly confident that each of these ideas could be implemented without throwing off balance whatsoever. Like Stalker said in another thread, "I could be given 100+ tourism flat, right out of the gate with Artistry opener, and I still don't think it'd really move the needle for me".
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
  6. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So the reason these were lowered in the first place is because it way too easy for an enemy to just declare war on you are drop these bonuses. So if the % are too high, it makes CV too swingy. So the bonuses were lowered in favor of more per turn bonuses elsewhere.
     
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  7. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Just my 2 cents:

    Right now all cultural victory strategies should use either artistry or to the glory of god because musicians give crazy amounts and contribute a lot to how irrelevant other :tourism: sources can feel.

    Also we should try to add things that aren't blocked by war because so much tourism (including great musicians) gets blocked.

    I think changing the Arena from 1:tourism: to 1:tourism: per 4:c5citizen: would be a good way to implement this. I find growth weak with tourism games. A wonder or religious belief that gives :tourism: to specialists could work well. I don't think think is should be a basic feature though.
     
  8. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Ultimately depends on what master we want to serve (and honestly we are probably serving multiple when it comes to tourism). If the goal is to provide new levers for tourism, than this changes nothing (everyone builds arenas). If the goal is to start shifting more bonuses earlier (and therefore weaken late game multipliers), then this is a fine way to start sliding that in.
     
  9. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Now beyond Tourism bonuses, the other key of the discussion are Tourism "benefits". What should tourism provide that would make me want to prioritize it more. I'll summarize some thoughts I've seen on the board and maybe add my own flavor.

    One thing I am looking at, are benefits that are really solid and apparent to the user. Again we need to make tourism flashy and cool. For example, I liked the idea of adjusting CS decay based on influence levels....but that is all in the background, mostly hidden from the user. A user isn't going to "feel" that benefit, and if we actually want them to choose tourism over other things....they need to see benefits that are awesome and obvious, things that make them go "I want that!!!!"

    • Bonus Votes: Gain +1 vote per civ you are popular with (maximum based on number of CS). PAD put this one in and I like the feel of it. WC votes are hard to get past a certain point, so its enticing. Considering how important the WC is to a CV (either enabling it or crushing it), this again just makes natural sense. Its the idea I like the most at the moment. I put in a CS cap to prevent the map scaling concern G had, or a simple hard cap could be fine as well.
    • Combat Healing Bonus: If you are popular with the civilization, your units heal +5 in their territory. A number of combat bonuses have been put out, and this is my favorite. Flavor, this represents sympathizers aiding and supporting you, which is absolutely a thing in warfare. I want to stay away from warfare penalties, as it has bad mouthfeel, and you could get into trouble with extreme combat bonuses such as influence + high AWM fervor suddenly allowing the enemy to outright destroy units they shouldn't normally be able to....which dramatically changes the scope of a war. Healing is a solid and steady bonus that is useful but doesn't dramatically change anything.
    • Automatic Embassy / Open Doors: When you become popular with a civ, you automatically gain Open Doors and an Embassy with that civ (assuming not at war). The idea of diplomatic pressure through popular opinion, and a way to overcome sanctions a bit. .
    • Spy Speed: Spies and Thieves gain +20% effectiveness with civs you are popular with. A solid bonus, and also breaths new life into late game spies, which right now are just really bad and almost always switch to CS influence.
    • New Trade Routes: (Tenant) Immediately gain an additional Trade Route for every civ you are currently popular with (max +4). TRs are powerful and tangible benefits, and this is a fun tenant to piggy back off of other tourism tenants. While I like the idea of a general (+TR per X civs you are popular with), the issue is that you could lose TRs if your influence goes down, and then things get messy. So with a tenant, its an immediate one time boost, so there is the strategy of timing it with your influence levels for maximum benefit.

    and for fun....

    • Defectors: When you kill the unit of a civ you are Dominant with, there is a 50% chance they instead join your side (similar to the Sea Beggar promotion).
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
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  10. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Isn't what makes tourism flashy and cool is you can win the game with it? Your proposals are a lot better than many other proposals due to their caps handling map size well.

    But I don't think what really drives these bonuses will be investing in tourism.

    The bonuses will occur often if an AI gets half (but not all) his cities conquered since usually the whole world tends to become influential over the losers. In terms of gameplay, this is probably the biggest effect. That and they buff CV as a strategy (the guy going for tourism will always have more tourism than the guy going for science but detouring into tourism).

    I think the big question is about what 'master we serve', as you put it.
    Is the goal to make someone playing for a domination or science victory invest heavily in tourism? Hotels are probably the lowest opportunity cost way for non-tourism civs to increase their tourism. If the goal is that everyone always builds hotels everywhere every game then I hate it.

    Or do we expect people to make big tradeoffs? Such as people to give up a science or military religious belief for tourism? I really don't see that happening.
     
  11. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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    Please let diplomat setup speed in capitals be affected by influence like spies are.
     
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  12. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    This is a very nice summary of why we haven't seen any motion on Tourism in like 5 years :) Its a tough nut to crack. You make a good point that as long as influence levels are commonly gotten among the weaker civs, conquest will be the easiest way to get these bonuses, not further tourism drives.

    So perhaps instead of looking at all influence levels, we need to be more picky. Perhaps only being popular with the top 3 culture civs provides "the bonus", whatever that particular bonus is. That's a little more gamey than I like but its one way.

    Or....perhaps we look at raw Tourism instead of influence levels. Aka we don't look at tourism comparatively but absolutely, just like every other yield.

    One way would be to add a new line to the Tourism UI for just raw Tourism (now I'm in pure spitball I have no idea how hard that would be to do, I'm guessing its tricky, as UI work often is). G said one of the issues was that the Tourism UI for a civ was full, so it would be hard to showcase benefits. But if we added an entire new line, that gives us some space to work with.
     
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  13. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    If we want some alternate tourism strategy to exist, I'd go for this.

    Add a religious belief (or possibly a wonder) that converts like 50% of your tourism into a specific yield (maybe faith), BUT reduces how much tourism other civs receive from you by like 50%.

    If the numbers were right, the reward would be powerful, but it's not something that the CV players can use.

    On like raw tourism vs bonus yields, I've always wanted it to be more about the raw value and less about spamming historic events, but that appears to be tough to crack.
     
  14. DeAnno

    DeAnno Prince

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    Is there any way to treat Tourism as a resource like Culture, where you can spend it to buy things and yet still have the big total stack of it? As a really radical idea, what if you could for example use Tourism as an alternative cost for maybe Envoy units or Missionaries? You would definitely have to do some fiddling with the scaling but it doesn't seem unreasonable, and is a more concrete and understanable reward than all these riders we keep trying to stuff in the saddlebags.
     
  15. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Similar to how Spain ships can be bought with gold or faith, Envoys could be bought with gold or tourism. Hmm, interesting.
     
  16. Legen

    Legen King

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    Personally, I don't think Tourism needs new effects. Rather, I think the existing effects should be boosted: stronger trade routes, better spy activity and far more unhappiness from differing ideologies. These effects have the potential to be way more impactful than they are right now, especially the last one, and are currently of little relevance in most games.

    About tourism accumulation, it tends to spike at Radio, when you get access to Broadcast Towers with their pop scaler for tourism and the first theming bonus for music works; a big one at +14. I think we can improve the early tourism accumulation by giving theming capabilities to Opera Houses and diluting the pop scaler among earlier cultural buildings.

    The same could be told of the tourism from Hotel, Airport, Stadium and the Information Era national wonder. Diluting it over some earlier buildings could adjust the tourism curve on earlier eras, so that it isn't such an exponential curve towards the lategame.
     
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  17. psparky

    psparky Prince

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    When considering changing the curve, please remember those of us that play on continents type maps or similar, where you don't even meet some civs until mid-game.

    One out-there idea I had was to change the target from total lifetime culture to the average of total culture and their tourism against you. This would make the lower influence levels much easier to reach. It would also introduce the defensive musician as a way to slow another civ's culture victory. Mechanically this would be very easy to implement, but adjusting the AI to take advantage might be difficult (otherwise I would probably trial this myself, just to see).

    Another thought is that the total culture target should get a penalty based on the number of cities (on a turn by turn basis). Currently, the principal obstacle to overcome is usually the massive total culture of the biggest civ or civs.
     
  18. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    this is a nice simple change that would both give earl tourism more oomph and also allow musicians to shine a bit earlier, it’s a neat idea.
     
  19. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    Already exists. It's called a Great Writer ;)
     
  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    So I've been working on something. I'll leave this here:

    Code:
    A Great Musician can create a Great Work of Music (generates both [ICON_CULTURE] Culture and [ICON_TOURISM] Tourism) that is placed in the nearest city that has an appropriate building with an empty slot (like an Opera House or Broadcast Tower).[NEWLINE][NEWLINE]A Great Musician can also travel to another civilization and perform a [COLOR_POSITIVE_TEXT]Concert Tour[ENDCOLOR]. The value of this action depends on the number of [ICON_GREAT_WORK] Great Works of Music you have created. [COLOR_POSITIVE_TEXT]The more Great Works of Music you own, the longer your Concert Tours last[ENDCOLOR]. When you completed a Concert Tour, your [ICON_TOURISM] Tourism with the target Civilization is immediately increased by 100% for [COLOR_POSITIVE_TEXT]10[ENDCOLOR] Turns, plus 1 additional Turn for every owned Great Work of Music. This action consumes the unit.[NEWLINE][NEWLINE]Cannot perform this action if at war with the target Civilization, or if your [ICON_TOURISM] Cultural Influence over the Civilization is [COLOR_MAGENTA]Influential[ENDCOLOR] or greater.
    
    GM are the ultimate problem here - Concert Tour rework is the solution.
    G
     

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