Tourism

[Stalker0]

Hehe part of me misses the old Civ IV CV.

In Civ IV, you had to get 3 "legendary cities", in which each city got X amount of culture (it was like 10,000 or 100,000 or something enormous). It was one part religious victory, as acquiring and distributing a lot of religions got you access to multiple monasteries which were good culture providers. You also generally had to get a strong economy, which you then converted into culture. And of course a good amount of wonders. It also had a system that culture buildings double their benefits after X amount of turns (aka ancient buildings draw modern tourists due to their age). None of this lame extra yield tourism that's barely a yield

The thing I always like about Civ IV's style, was that while its CV "allowed" for Tall play, it did not "promote it". Honestly the concept of Tall is really more of a Civ 5 invention, the notion that less cities could actually be better than more cities. While Civ IV allowed for a small nation to win using CV (as it was always 3 legendary cities no matter what), and great people allowed you to focus benefits into a "single large capital", you still got bonuses for more cities, aka it was still better to be wide overall.

 

[azum4roll]

Wait the musician happiness goes to the capital? That's pretty useless...

 

[Stalker0]

So one idea is to do a feedback loop with Religion. It could be argued that holy sites are one of the best forms of early tourism you often do not get, as people will often use their GP instead for spreads. But what if tourism also increased your religious pressure with a civ. So a player could go with more holy sites = more passive spread as opposed to the active spread approach, offering another form of gameplay.

 

[Thibix Magnus]

So one idea is to do a feedback loop with Religion. It could be argued that holy sites are one of the best forms of early tourism you often do not get, as people will often use their GP instead for spreads. But what if tourism also increased your religious pressure with a civ. So a player could go with more holy sites = more passive spread as opposed to the active spread approach, offering another form of gameplay.

I was thinking about that, particularly to get more use of Pilgrim holy sites (otherwise they are the worst yield to have on a HS), but the weird thing is that on the other side Way of the Pilgrim, the early tourism belief, has no interest in spreading

 

[Stalker0]

To somewhat familiar myself with the issue again, I tried out India going Sacred Sites and power religion (on Immortal). I wanted to see what I could pull off.

So my religion dominated the continent and I was getting a full 75% (shared religion, open borders, and trade route) with Siam, Morocco, and eventually America. With that, and the power of sacred sites (and 2 concert bombs on Morocco in the early game just to see if I could push it), I never managed to get one of them to popular as of Turn 344. And it wasn't like they were top culture dogs, even Morocco's culture was only 3rd best in the world, Siam being 4th.

So even with a pretty solid "early tourism" strat, the best I could hope for was familiar. Now +5% extra growth and a few extra yields on a TR are....nice, but was that worth giving up some of the better religious benefits? not even close.

Now feel free to substitute sacred sites for power holy sites, or Arabia tradition with tons of early great works, way of the pilgrim, etc. Aka you could pick alternate tourism strats, but they all suffer from the fact that early tourism just cannot move the needle very well.

 

[CrazyG]

So even with a pretty solid "early tourism" strat, the best I could hope for was familiar. Now +5% extra growth and a few extra yields on a TR are....nice, but was that worth giving up some of the better religious benefits? not even close.

Here is the SQL file for the rewards for tourism:

Spoiler SQL Code :

--- These 5 values change the amount of science earned from trade routes with influence civs. Each is adding to an incremental value (so Familiar is already 1, Popular already 2, etc.)
INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_SCIENCE_INFLUENCE_LEVEL_EXOTIC', '2'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_TOURISM_CHANGES' AND Value= 1 );

INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_SCIENCE_INFLUENCE_LEVEL_FAMILIAR', '4'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_TOURISM_CHANGES' AND Value= 1 );

INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_SCIENCE_INFLUENCE_LEVEL_POPULAR', '6'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_TOURISM_CHANGES' AND Value= 1 );

INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_SCIENCE_INFLUENCE_LEVEL_INFLUENTIAL', '8'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_TOURISM_CHANGES' AND Value= 1 );

INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_SCIENCE_INFLUENCE_LEVEL_DOMINANT', '10'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_TOURISM_CHANGES' AND Value= 1 );

--- Reduce turns for conquest of cities. Base is 25 for each level of influence, this adds to it.

INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_CONQUEST_REDUCTION_BOOST', '5'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_TOURISM_CHANGES' AND Value= 1 );

--- Set turns for spies to est. in cities based on influence.

INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_SPY_BOOST_INFLUENCE_EXOTIC', '5'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_TOURISM_CHANGES' AND Value= 1 );

INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_SPY_BOOST_INFLUENCE_FAMILIAR', '4'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_TOURISM_CHANGES' AND Value= 1 );

INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_SPY_BOOST_INFLUENCE_POPULAR', '3'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_TOURISM_CHANGES' AND Value= 1 );

INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_SPY_BOOST_INFLUENCE_INFLUENTIAL', '2'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_TOURISM_CHANGES' AND Value= 1 );

INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_SPY_BOOST_INFLUENCE_DOMINANT', '1'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_TOURISM_CHANGES' AND Value= 1 );

--- These 5 values change the amount of gold earned from trade routes with influenced civs. Higher influence = more gold (trade-off for higher influence).

INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_GOLD_INFLUENCE_LEVEL_EXOTIC', '200'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_TOURISM_CHANGES' AND Value= 1 );

INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_GOLD_INFLUENCE_LEVEL_FAMILIAR', '400'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_TOURISM_CHANGES' AND Value= 1 );

INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_GOLD_INFLUENCE_LEVEL_POPULAR', '600'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_TOURISM_CHANGES' AND Value= 1 );

INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_GOLD_INFLUENCE_LEVEL_INFLUENTIAL', '800'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_TOURISM_CHANGES' AND Value= 1 );

INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_GOLD_INFLUENCE_LEVEL_DOMINANT', '1000'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_TOURISM_CHANGES' AND Value= 1 );

INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_GROWTH_INFLUENCE_LEVEL_EXOTIC', '5'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_TOURISM_CHANGES' AND Value= 1 );

INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_GROWTH_INFLUENCE_LEVEL_FAMILIAR', '10'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_TOURISM_CHANGES' AND Value= 1 );

INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_GROWTH_INFLUENCE_LEVEL_POPULAR', '15'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_TOURISM_CHANGES' AND Value= 1 );

INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_GROWTH_INFLUENCE_LEVEL_INFLUENTIAL', '20'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_TOURISM_CHANGES' AND Value= 1 );

INSERT INTO Defines (
Name, Value)
SELECT 'BALANCE_GROWTH_INFLUENCE_LEVEL_DOMINANT', '25'
WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_TOURISM_CHANGES' AND Value= 1 );

The tourism cut offs are
5%: exotic
25% familiar
50% popular
100% influential
???% dominant (not listed in the file)

Exotic is basically free, it'll happen once you get wonders or great people provided you culture isn't terrible.
You need 10x that amount to get to popular and 20x for influential.


You get the following per each level of influence (I'm summarizing so a single number might be off)

• 5% growth
  
• an unclear amount of gold (from experience I think it ends up being like 2)
• Spies establish 1 turn faster
• 2 **

**A comment in the document says that it scales inclusively, meaning familiar should be worth 6 science (not 4). That means familiar does not match the in-game tooltips. It would mean when dominant your trade routes get 30!

Just my 2 cents:
You could double or triple these values and the idea of a 'tourism detour' still wouldn't work well at all.

 

[Zuizgond]

What's your take on the 4-14 change to Arena introduced in version 4-14 (tourism = 34% pop)? Is it fine, should it be toned up/down?

I think it should be toned down a bit, like 20-25% of pop. But as it was changed because tourism generation was considered too low in early eras, I'd like to have the community opinion on this.