Tourisme issue

LumenAngel

King
Joined
Apr 15, 2012
Messages
673
Location
Center of the World (France)
I have a little problem with the actual tourism... Why it's so negative?

With all the 10 tourisme level, you have (otal)
+ 50 disease ; +50 air pollution ; +50 water pollution ; +100 crime ; + 110 gold ; +110 culture ; +10 happy.
But with all these crime pollutions and disease, happyness and gold will be gone! Actually, tourism is more like a malus trying to destroy my cities with too many wonders.
The text say "Tourism is an important, even vital, source of income form many countries". But in C2C, it's a major problem!. Late game, even Crime (Pickpocketing) and Crime (Online Piracy) will cost me more than 110 golds. And they are buildings with low crime!

To remove the crime malus, I need 2 sentinel (coast : 32) or 3 Police helicopter (coast 30) or 5 Police squad (cost : 35)
To remove disease, i need 2 Ambulance WW1 (cost 16) or 2 later units (cost 16+)
To remove pollution, I will need 5 Ecologists (coast 20)

Already more than half the gold bonus are lost in units to remove negative effects. If I can build them, and if I have time to build them... because meanwhile, many Crime, Pollution and Disease building are destroying my city
 
With build-ups etc you should only need one police unit.
Pollution and disease shouldn't be a problem by the time you have police helicopters as buildings should take care of that on their own.
 
With build-ups etc you should only need one police unit.
Pollution and disease shouldn't be a problem by the time you have police helicopters as buildings should take care of that on their own.

Is this conclusion from your recent observations? Or is it more of a guess?

JosEPh
 
From recent observation.
A big tourism increase in a city (because of a wonder) with an increase population at the same time was a big problem.
Yes, disease is not the biggest problem, but pollution and crime is.

In my science-specialized city, it was a major issue. All good wonder about science have a good tourisme boost. But I dont want tourism in this city! And I didn't find a way to reduce tourism. Close border, Despotism or all others "bad" civics don't reduce tourism, even tourists trap don't reduce it. Tourism (level X) req nothing but a tehnology and the level 1 to 5 come very fast, even if you have no road, no airport and nothing for tourists.
You just have an Einstein's Laboratory and a Great Mosque of Desert and your tourists make more crime and far less gold than a druglors's mansion
 
From these numeric analyses, it does look like reducing crime and pollution from tourism would be helpful to bring things into better balance. At least the pollution. The reason I'd start there and maybe even end there is because crime and disease are actually relatively easy to take care of, easier as you get further into the tech tree. But the pollution really doesn't have quite so much counterbalance factors that allows you much control there and I don't think tourism would impact pollution THAT much more than the city naturally does.

Some civics probably should have an effect to reduce tourism, as noted in the last post.
 
Another way would be to have some more req for Tourism (level X) building.
Like if you dont have at least an airport you cant have Tourism (Lvl 7 or higher) If you dont have Hotel, you cant have lvl 6 or higher. If you dont have power.... if you dont have fresh water.... If you don't have any roads...
Tourism lvl 6-7 can happen in medieval era, and fight against so many crime and disease this early is really hard.
 
Another way would be to have some more req for Tourism (level X) building.
Like if you dont have at least an airport you cant have Tourism (Lvl 7 or higher) If you dont have Hotel, you cant have lvl 6 or higher. If you dont have power.... if you dont have fresh water.... If you don't have any roads...
Tourism lvl 6-7 can happen in medieval era, and fight against so many crime and disease this early is really hard.

That's good too - I strongly agree this would be very helpful that lodging buildings and other infrastructures limit tourism - but it doesn't change the balance between benefit and detriment. To do that we need to either reduce penalties or increase benefits or both.
 
Perhaps, rather than enabling the tourism levels, these buildings could modify them.
Hotels could reduce or eliminate disease (no more camping in the wilderness), airports could increase :gold: but also air pollution, civics could abolish tourism altogether (I already mentioned that in another thread) or order your citizens to provide housing for the tourists (leading to :mad: citizens but more :gold:, less water pollution and less :espionage: - traitors never had it so easy).

Air pollution should mostly be connected to the traveling methods, with early roads little pollution, with railroad (non-electric), highway or airport (as long as that is the fastest method) high pollution, and with maglevs and jumplanes no pollution. Electric railroad shouldn't produce any pollution either, but that effect is ruined if you have an airport, whereas maglevs can easily be faster than airplanes, since there is far less security involved - hijacking a maglev would be pointless.
 
Perhaps, rather than enabling the tourism levels, these buildings could modify them.
Hotels could reduce or eliminate disease (no more camping in the wilderness), airports could increase :gold: but also air pollution, civics could abolish tourism altogether (I already mentioned that in another thread) or order your citizens to provide housing for the tourists (leading to :mad: citizens but more :gold:, less water pollution and less :espionage: - traitors never had it so easy).

Air pollution should mostly be connected to the traveling methods, with early roads little pollution, with railroad (non-electric), highway or airport (as long as that is the fastest method) high pollution, and with maglevs and jumplanes no pollution. Electric railroad shouldn't produce any pollution either, but that effect is ruined if you have an airport, whereas maglevs can easily be faster than airplanes, since there is far less security involved - hijacking a maglev would be pointless.
Some interesting conceptualization here. I'd be intrigued to see someone attempt this approach.
 
I have just been updating the Tourism_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml file to make it modular and so play nicely with the other optional mods. Halfway through I realised that should make it fully modular also.

I did notice a few strange design choices while going through not all to do with tourism. The two I can still remember after updating over 500 entries are
  • Some wonders eg Sacrificial Alter, are becoming tourist attractions when all such foreigners would have been participants not tourist:lol:. Similarly for secret/secure locations eg Fort Knox and others like the Silk Road.

  • there are no crimes by the rich or powerful against the poor or weak.:crazyeye:

The file Tourism_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml is a transaction file used to update the buildings infos with, in this case, tourism property values. This is one of the advantages of us using WoC. Unfortunately it was put together without considering the fact that some of the buildings are in optional modules. For example the Lotus Temple (by Platyping) is a Bahai wonder. Bahia is optional so the building wont be in a game where Bahai has been turned off.

For modders information I will step through what needed to be done with these WoC transactions.

The original code
Code:
<BuildingInfo>
[B][COLOR="Red"]	<BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_LOTUS_TEMPLE</BuildingClass>
[/COLOR][/B]	[COLOR="DarkOrange"]<Type>BUILDING_LOTUS_TEMPLE</Type>[/COLOR]
[COLOR="SeaGreen"]	<PropertyManipulators>
	  <PropertySource>
	    <PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
	    <PropertyType>PROPERTY_TOURISM</PropertyType>
	    <iAmountPerTurn>10</iAmountPerTurn>
	  </PropertySource>
	</PropertyManipulators>
[/COLOR]</BuildingInfo>
The line in red is an error and should not be there. It is OK if the building class exists but will cause one to be built if it doesn't. This will result in blank entries in the pedia and may in some cases cause other problems. They also take up memory.

WoC transactions are simple update transactions that have been around since computers. They have a key to identify what record/object is to be updated and fields/tags and their new values. (Note The WoC development team made the choice to not allow tags to be set to the default.)

The key is orange and the updates are green.

WoC allows us to use dependencies to indicate when the transaction should be applied. Without these dependencies you will get XML errors on loading. Unfortunately using them also increases the time for the load, especially in this case where we have so many.

First I added in the dependency that allowed the building to be optional.

Code:
<BuildingInfo>
	<Type>BUILDING_LOTUS_TEMPLE</Type>
[B]	<AndDependencyTypes>
		<DependencyType>BUILDING_LOTUS_TEMPLE</DependencyType>
	</AndDependencyTypes>
[/B]	<PropertyManipulators>
	  <PropertySource>
	    <PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
	    <PropertyType>PROPERTY_TOURISM</PropertyType>
	    <iAmountPerTurn>10</iAmountPerTurn>
	  </PropertySource>
	</PropertyManipulators>
</BuildingInfo>
I then realised after doing over half of the entries that I should have been proactive and made all these also require the tourism property just in case we wanted to make tourism an option.

I was not sure that WoC had been updated to include the property types but testing shows that it is.

The final XML code is
Code:
<BuildingInfo>
	<Type>BUILDING_LOTUS_TEMPLE</Type>
	<AndDependencyTypes>
		<DependencyType>BUILDING_LOTUS_TEMPLE</DependencyType>
		<DependencyType>PROPERTY_TOURISM</DependencyType>
	</AndDependencyTypes>
	<PropertyManipulators>
	  <PropertySource>
	    <PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
	    <PropertyType>PROPERTY_TOURISM</PropertyType>
	    <iAmountPerTurn>10</iAmountPerTurn>
	  </PropertySource>
	</PropertyManipulators>
</BuildingInfo>

I have only just started adding in the property dependency. It is boring and I will probably not get it all done today.

Note as I said this makes load time longer but it has no effect on game turn time.

Edit While WoC recognises the property types they are loaded after the buildings infos including these transactions so they don't exist. That turns off these transactions and means we can't use this way of making the properties optional :(
 
From recent observation.
A big tourism increase in a city (because of a wonder) with an increase population at the same time was a big problem.
Yes, disease is not the biggest problem, but pollution and crime is.

In my science-specialized city, it was a major issue. All good wonder about science have a good tourisme boost. But I dont want tourism in this city! And I didn't find a way to reduce tourism. Close border, Despotism or all others "bad" civics don't reduce tourism, even tourists trap don't reduce it. Tourism (level X) req nothing but a tehnology and the level 1 to 5 come very fast, even if you have no road, no airport and nothing for tourists.
You just have an Einstein's Laboratory and a Great Mosque of Desert and your tourists make more crime and far less gold than a druglors's mansion

I like idea of having to build Tourist Capacity with buildings unlocking levels
 
In fact going to throw out my old idea about Tourism working on the basis of a Tourist special person. Each one would add gold and nothing else but count to the population therefore adding "naturally" to crime, unhappiness, disease.

The Tourism property would represent a maximum potential (each level = 1 Tourist for example) but in order to get a tourist specific buildings would be needed to accommodate them. The buildings could have other properties attached so you could vary the type of effect of tourist (for example smelly backpacker would bring unhealthy but maybe add a little bit of culture by building a Youth Hostel)

Obviously the buildings would be unlocked at certain techs and change through the ages!
 
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