Tower of Mastery Victory

MrUnderhill

Civ-loving Hobbit
Joined
Dec 6, 2005
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Continued from the teaser thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=185851&page=9 (Posts 177-onward are mostly about the towers)

Current suggestions:
Spoiler QES' Tower Improvements :
Tower of Divination - See whole map, eliminate fog of war. (Basically you can see everything, including production and capabilties of enemies.) Perhaps even allow zooming (but not changing) into foriegn cities.

Tower of Necromancy - Undead are produced at twice the rate, the civ can have twice the normal capasity, and undead last twice as long.
(This means that the lowly skeleton is summoned as though the unit summoing had twin cast, and the unit lasts twice as long, and the civ can hold up to twice the number of they could without the tower. In skeletons this means 2x the amount of casters, for nightmares and wraiths, it means twincast, double lasting, for liches it means 6 total. And for any other Undead Producing method, it would double/double/double.)

Tower of Elements - All elemental summons and spells have the following:
Fire spells/summons do twice the damage.
Earth Spells Last twice as long.
Water spells are doubled (happen twice per cast).
Air spells move/act twice as fast. (This could mean more likely to occur if % chance, or faster movement for summons.)

Tower of Alteration - Counts as a ring of warding in ever city AND:
Mages XP growth is Doubled.
All mana nodes produce +3 Commerce and +3 Hammers.
Production in all friendly cities is speed up by 20%. (Through use of magic)

Each of these is powerful, and is justified in its own way to be sought and gone after. Each also is significantly different from the others.
These buff would serve to reward heavy magic users.

For many of you considering twin cast too powerful, bare in mind these SHOULD BE WORLD WONDERS, that have heavy requirements levied on them. They SHOULD be in accordance with power equal to that difficulty.
-Qes

EDIT: I also see a VERY cool situation coming up, where every civilization wants to get a tower. So they actually compete to try to produce them. THis could lead to wars, etc. But, if all four towers are built and spread over different civilziations, it could be an interesting way of winnning the game, if you merely targeted those citys, then built the tower of mastery (which i think shouldnt necessitate every type of mana, ONLY the four other towers. This way strategic strikes and conquering could let you build the Master Tower, and win. Interesting to role play, certainly.


Spoiler Towers as rebuildable World Wonders? :
QES said:
As World wonders A) they get more powerful bonuses which make them viable for themselves outside of a Matster vicotry and B) they can become conquerable and therefore an easier Master victory can be achieved.

Mr.Underhill said:
Maybe the towers could be set up as world wonders, but as a safety measure, they can be rebuilt by someone else if they get razed. In addition, the hammer requirement could be doubled and all the mana requirements become double-speeds instead.

QES said:
And that would be fine, the razing of a city would delay but not permanently destroy the process, im perfectly fine with that. Although I think we could also (in addition) make it so that the AI wants to keep tower cities (because it'd bring THEM closer to victory) than to raze it. And players may be inclined to do the same thing naturally. To keep it fair, you could have them rebuildable (but perhaps more prohibitively expensive than the first time). I do like this idea.
-Qes

EDIT: Gernerally i simply want a reason to build the towers, i want insentive. The only way to incentavise it, as i can see, is to make it a scarce thing, so that you want it before others get it, and that it has a lot of potential goodness in it, so that you might want to build it even if your not going for a mastery victory. Maybe you just want to be the "Elemental King" or the "Alteration Overlord". The tower should reflect that particular form of mastery.
 
i dont think the towers are as attractive as sthey should be... whenever i start a game the last thing i think of doing is getting victory via tower of mastery. It needs a lot of production points to produce, it takes forever to get the nececary mana for it (especially with the new no-change-mana thing), and the effects doen't really make me think "Oh, i need to get this before the ai because the effects will help me become the best civ here"
 
I like the way they are national wonders right now (last thing I want to do is run around the map looking for that tower I need to win the game). But I do wish they did more. Right now, I just think of them as ways to win the game -- I pretty much ignore their effects. I think what you suggest is a bit too strong, but sounds interesting. Also, what you suggest is a bit complicated. I'd like it if each tower did one powerful thing.
 
i like where qes is going with this, but in practice it doesnt work so well. as it is ToM requires you to eliminate or at least take huge chunks from at least two rivals in the average game. With Qes's idea there's less large scale fighting, but there's more certainty that there will be some fighting. as you'll have to steal at least one tower from someone.

i think the answer would be to shift all 5 towers much deeper into the tech tree, and severly lighten the mana requirements (2 mana for each tower.)
This would make the tower more analogous with the spaceship victory of vanilla civ, which is essentially a tech race victory.

or instead of the theme being purely magical it could be more wholistic:
(i don't know the tech tree well enough, so i can just give general places for where these might come)
scrap the mana alltogether

Tower of Combat: sometime after mithral working(with a co requisite midway allong the archery tree). gives all units a free 'mastery' promotion +25% strength 1 first strike
Tower of the Gods: deep in the religous tree, fanaticism at the earliest. +1 culture for each city w/ SR (like a shrine)
Tower of Sorcery: @strength of will (or whatever allows archmages, i think
this is it) provides some combination of the current 4 towers benefits.
Tower of ??? im not sure about this one, something along the path where guilds is, that has a government theme. if i think of something ill come back and edit this.

all four of these are required for the tower of mastery. it certainly wouldnt be easy, you'd need a huge tech lead, each of the towers would be quite useful by themselves, and war is never a necessity.
 
Reserved for Future Ideas
-Qes
 
Tower of Rulership? Perhaps automatic 0% maintenence cost for all cities on the continent or something.

Even if that isn't implemented, I think requiring two mana for each tower would be plenty difficult to attain. Also, making each tower a world wonder, but making it so that you don't have to control all the towers to make the main Tower might be interesting. To make this a viable builder victory condition to shoot for, we'd have to make it a lot easier.
 
we could also treat the towers like the alpha centauri victory condition, where the completion of the prerequisite would allow everyone to begin construction of the science victory.

Therefore, the four towers could give massive boni, but the only thing that really counts is finishing the final tower. Since you can't pre-build in CIV IV, I think this could work.

Also, this means that if there are multiple contenders in a game, you can build the tower that helps you the most -- then either conquer the world with it's power behind you, or move to the tower of mastery if it's not enough to tip the balance.
 
Just thinking about the towers, I came up with a concept of a much more accessible version with five different ways to achieve victory. Note that the cost of the basic towers would be increased, and that the non-Mastery victory towers would be hellishly expensive.

Would also be a good idea to announce to everyone when someone gets any of the techs, as well as give all AIs a diplomacy penalty towards that player. ("-8: You are meddling with things best left unmeddled with!" or, from the Sheaim concerning the Necromancy path : "+10: Keep up the good work!")

Spoiler :

Tower of Alteration (World Wonder):
Requires Body, Mind, Dimensional and Enchantment mana.
Provides 3 Body, Mind, Dimensional and Enchantment mana.
Your spells are more difficult to resist.
Units with Body I gain +1 base strength.
Units with Mind I randomly gain extra experience.
Units with Dimensional I gain +1 movement.
Units with Enchantment gain +20% combat strength.

Secrets of Alteration (Tech. Cost = Armageddon+, requires Tower of Alteration):
Your spells are almost impossible to resist.
Burning Blood cast by your units almost never kills the target.
Domination fizzles without any ill effect to the caster.
Escape does not add the 'Casted' promotion, and instead grants +2 movement until end of turn.
Spellstaves are reusable, but can still only be used once per turn.
Enables construction of Tower of Absolute Control. (The power to change reality at a whim. Wins the game.)

---

Tower of Divination (World Wonder)
Requires Life, Spirit and Law mana.
Provides 3 Life, Spirit and Law mana.
Gain a free non-Secrets tech.
Units with Life I heal +15% each turn.
Units with Spirit I will keep fighting for a few combat rounds after death.
Units with Law I always defeat Chaos summons with no health loss, and will, if defeated by a converting enemy, instead resurrect under your control.

Secrets of Divination (Tech. Cost = Armageddon+, requires Tower of Divination)
Gain two free non-Secrets techs.
The otherwise plain first-level life spell that removes fallout removes all unhealth in cities, as long as the caster is present.
Hope generates quite a lot of culture.
Unyielding Order is permanent.
Enables construction of Tower of Absolute Omniscience. (Knowledge is Power. Wins the game.)

---

Tower of Necromancy (World Wonder)
Requires Death, Chaos and Entropy mana.
Provides 3 Death, Chaos and Entropy mana.
All undead and demon units you summon gain +1 base strength.
Units with Death I have a very small chance (1%ish) to win any combat outright.
Units with Chaos I gain the 'Wild Magic' ability to cast a random spell, chosen from all spells in the game.
Units with Entropy I gain Command, as per Inquisitors.

Secrets of Necromancy (Tech. Cost = Armageddon+, requires Tower of Necromancy)
All undead and demon units in the world get +1 base strength. Stacks with the tower bonus.
Skeletons get defensive bonuses, and may promote just like any living units.
If a Chaos Maraduer would join the barbarians, you instead gain control of it permanently.
Summoned Imps have access to 2-4 random spell spheres, as well as Sorcery and Channeling II.
Enables construction of Tower of Absolute Darkness (All men and beasts that have ever died rise again under your control. Wins the game.)

---

Tower of the Elements (World Wonder)
Requires Fire, Water, Earth and Nature mana.
Provides 3 Fire, Water, Earth and Nature mana.
All elemental units created by magic start with Combat I+II. This includes everything from Tigers to Meteors.
Units with Fire I deal minor collateral damage.
Units with Water I regain a small portion of lost health after winning a battle.
Units with Earth I gain double movement and +50% defense in hill tiles.
Units with Nature I gain double movement and +50% defense in forest tiles.

Secrets of the Elements (Tech. Cost = Armageddon+, requires Tower of the Elements)
Fireballs/Meteors deal double bombard damage, and double collateral damage.
Water Walking can be cast on others.
Summoned walls provide +1 hammers from all tiles within the city radius. Don't ask how.
Vitalize cast on a grassland tile will turn it into a plains tile.
Enables construction of Tower of Absolute Essence (Control the basic building-blocks of the world, and you control it all. Wins the game. Needs a better name and description)

---

...aaand, finally:
Tower of Mastery
Requires the other four towers.
Wins the game without bothering with that silly 'research' step.
 
I have to say I like having to get all of the types of mana. It is interesting and challenging but far from impossible on a large of huge map. You can found religions, build wonders and just acquire the resources.

What I would like to see is the towers having more interesting powers and the final tower taking less time to build so that if you have finally met all the pre-reqs, you can fairly easily win the game.
 
I like some aspects of BCalchet's suggestion as well.

I suggest the following:
1. The minor towers are world wonders that have powers along the lines BCalchet suggests. Thus they are capturable.

2. Upon completion, the minor towers grant very expensive techs along the lines BCalchet suggests. The towers should grant their free tech to anyone that captures them, making them extra desireable for a targeted military conquest.

3. The minor towers are sped up with the extra mana of the appropriate type...say by 20% for each additional mana of a type one has.

4. The tower of mastery is a world wonder that requires the 4 techs that one is granted by the towers, but not the minor towers themselves.

5. The tower of mastery is stupidly expensive to build on it's own, but is sped up by say 50% for each of the minor towers owned by the builder and wins the game.


With such a system one could win via the tower of mastery by any of the following means:
Out tech one's oppenents and build the tower of mastery directly via brute force production.
Out produce one's opponents and build one or more of the minor towers and tower of mastery more efficiently.
Capture your opponent's production and tech bonuses via precision military strikes and then build the tower of mastery with your stolen techs.
 
@ hypnotoad: I agree that collecting all the mana is interesting but I don't like it for a victory condition, perhaps another very powerful wonder that needs all the mana?
And the smaller the map the more difficult it becomes, I think a victory condition should be viable on all map sizes.

ToM on standard or lower is typically a double win situation. I you have an army that's captured enough of the world to get all 14 sources then you might as well just go ahead and take the rest, ToM is redundant.
Oh, and rites of Oghma(sp?) doesnt help much, I spent 120 turns building it and only got 2 new sources in my rather large empire. i know it's supposed to effect the world, but is there a way to make it a little bit nicer for the civ that builds it?
 
The towers should grant their free tech to anyone that captures them, making them extra desireable for a targeted military conquest.
That might work, but only if the host civ already has the tech. Otherwise, the builder civ could cheat by giving the tower city to another civ, declaring war, retaking the city, and getting the tech.

I think it would be better if it added the builder civ's progress in aquiring the tech (in beakers) to the conquerer civ's progress. This would also fix any issues between two civs that are researching the same tech.
 
MrUnderhill said:
That might work, but only if the host civ already has the tech. Otherwise, the builder civ could cheat by giving the tower city to another civ, declaring war, retaking the city, and getting the tech.

I think it would be better if it added the builder civ's progress in aquiring the tech (in beakers) to the conquerer civ's progress. This would also fix any issues between two civs that are researching the same tech.

Maybe I wasn't clear.

I was suggesting that completing a minor tower grant a FREE tech, but in this case it would be limited to a single particular tech. Thus, the builder of a tower would always have that particular tech and there would be no need to do something strange like give away your city and capture it back.

I added that a conquerer of a tower should also aquire the free tech only to make the tower more attractive to military conquest than it might be otherwise.
 
Eh, what's the point of having a tech if it comes free with the tower? In that case, might as well just attach all bonuses to the wonder itself and skip the whole tech thing.
 
BCalchet said:
Eh, what's the point of having a tech if it comes free with the tower? In that case, might as well just attach all bonuses to the wonder itself and skip the whole tech thing.

The point is to allow everyone the possibility to win with this victory method and to allow there to be different methods of doing so.

If a minor tower is a world wonder then only 1 CIV can get the tech associated with it for free. (putting aside the concept of capturing the tower and aquiring the tech)

But...if I can still get the tech granted by the tower another way (like conventional research), then I'm not locked out of pursuit of the tower of mastery victory, I'm just not as well off as whomever built the tower.
 
Good Sauce said:
@ hypnotoad: I agree that collecting all the mana is interesting but I don't like it for a victory condition, perhaps another very powerful wonder that needs all the mana?
And the smaller the map the more difficult it becomes, I think a victory condition should be viable on all map sizes.

ToM on standard or lower is typically a double win situation. I you have an army that's captured enough of the world to get all 14 sources then you might as well just go ahead and take the rest, ToM is redundant.
Oh, and rites of Oghma(sp?) doesnt help much, I spent 120 turns building it and only got 2 new sources in my rather large empire. i know it's supposed to effect the world, but is there a way to make it a little bit nicer for the civ that builds it?

Well, I'm saying something that has been said before but: I don't think the disparity is a problem. It's a lot harder to get a conquest victory on a huge map. It is easier to get a ToM victory on a huge map. And it is easier to get a conquest victory on a small map and harder to get a ToM victory. I don't think this is a problem. Why should all victories be as easy to get on various maps?

I suppose if you really wanted to change it, I would suggest something like: large map each tower requires all four of the following mana...
normall map each tower requires three of the following mana...
small map each tower requires two of the following mana...

That would make the victory condition scale with the size of the map. It's not clear to me that that is a good thing, but there you go.

I like playing on larger maps and I like having a victory condition that requires targeting certain resources around the map but not requiring total domination. In fact, I have never won a game by domination or conquest and I've won a lot of games -- I just don't like having to bother with beating absolutely everyone up.
 
Oh, and rites of Oghma(sp?) doesnt help much, I spent 120 turns building it and only got 2 new sources in my rather large empire. i know it's supposed to effect the world, but is there a way to make it a little bit nicer for the civ that builds it?
Or just quicker. By the time I build this, I usually have the ToM started already.
 
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