Trad vs Lib for delayed expansion?

[Stacked_Deck]

In this scenario I'm thinking of self founding three (capital plus two expansions) early on, but then expanding through conquest in the medieval, maybe renaissance era. The eventual goal being a war assisted CV, targeting the AIs who've built culture wonders and great works.

So the question is tradition for the growth in the early eras, or Liberty for the eventual wide benefits?

 

[consentient]

If you're only going to war to take out the cultural runaways, then I recommend Tradition so you can tech to Machinery faster, but I have found that it's generally more effective to go Liberty Domination, CB rush, take out a few neighbours, and then stop and push for a CV. Since you'll have a continent / half a pangaea to yourself, it makes Archaeology more valuable and if you need to continue the war to take out a cultural runaway in the late renaissance/industrial, you'll have the economy to do it

 

[Stacked_Deck]

I have found that it's generally more effective to go Liberty Domination, CB rush, take out a few neighbours, and then stop and push for a CV.

It's funny you say that, I ended up spawning close to Alexander. Even though he's very strong in the ancient and early classical I feel that usually it's worthwhile to rush him. A tough war but it's better to deal with him before he gets the ball rolling, paying him off to fight other people might buy some time, but causes more problems in the end, IMO.

 

[joncnunn]

Tradition by far for expansion via conquest.

Liberty's bonuses are tied into self-expanding wide. (e.g. greatly reduced hammer cost of settlers which also means the capital has fewer turns in which its not growing)

The happiness portion of Liberty actually falls further and further behind Tradition as the game goes on in BNW thanks to food cargo routes.

 

[Nares]

It's funny you say that, I ended up spawning close to Alexander. Even though he's very strong in the ancient and early classical I feel that usually it's worthwhile to rush him. A tough war but it's better to deal with him before he gets the ball rolling, paying him off to fight other people might buy some time, but causes more problems in the end, IMO.

Pay him to conquer into extreme unhappiness.

I did that in a recent game in which he was my immediate neighbor. Paid him to conquer Sweden, then India, then the Songhai. Finally, he was so far into unhappiness that rebels started appearing around his capital. With his empire strung out along the eastern borders of mine, this left his only pocket of resistance to the north, a cluster of cannons and some odd riflemen he had used to capture Gao, and outside of some naval bombardment slowing down my push on Stockholm, he fell, quick and easy.

Of course, then I was so far into unhappiness myself that one of my major cities flipped...to the French, who were on the far side of the map - I assume it flips to the highest tourism influence, which must have been Nappy.

 

[Stacked_Deck]

The happiness portion of Liberty actually falls further and further behind Tradition as the game goes on in BNW thanks to food cargo routes.

Because of how tall you can grow the capital? Isn't that dependent on whether it's a coastal city? Not to mention how good your food tiles are, I'm wrapping up my current game and my capital was coastal but there were no fish and my land tiles were more production heavy. I started sending sea food routes as soon as it was economically viable but the capital still only reached 28. I couldn't have reached that if I was land locked.

Now sure later on in the game when each of my 10 cities has 20 population tradition would probably win out due to aristocracy, but that population explosion only happened with order. Like you said, tradition is better later on, but that's quite late.

So, not disagreeing with you, but I do think it's quite situational. The more I think about it, the more I take the view that liberty vs tradition isn't so much tall vs wide, but whether the power in the empire is going to be centralized or diffused.

 

[Stacked_Deck]

Pay him to conquer into extreme unhappiness.

I did that in a recent game in which he was my immediate neighbor. Paid him to conquer Sweden, then India, then the Songhai. Finally, he was so far into unhappiness that rebels started appearing around his capital. With his empire strung out along the eastern borders of mine, this left his only pocket of resistance to the north, a cluster of cannons and some odd riflemen he had used to capture Gao, and outside of some naval bombardment slowing down my push on Stockholm, he fell, quick and easy.

I don't find Alex, or any other warmonger, to be particularly good at doing anything with those cities. I much prefer to take him out of the picture and let the peaceful AIs build their wonders, then I reap what they sow.

 

[joncnunn]

Because of how tall you can grow the capital? Isn't that dependent on whether it's a coastal city? Not to mention how good your food tiles are, I'm wrapping up my current game and my capital was coastal but there were no fish and my land tiles were more production heavy. I started sending sea food routes as soon as it was economically viable but the capital still only reached 28. I couldn't have reached that if I was land locked.

Now sure later on in the game when each of my 10 cities has 20 population tradition would probably win out due to aristocracy, but that population explosion only happened with order. Like you said, tradition is better later on, but that's quite late.

So, not disagreeing with you, but I do think it's quite situational. The more I think about it, the more I take the view that liberty vs tradition isn't so much tall vs wide, but whether the power in the empire is going to be centralized or diffused.

Under Tradition, you'd have used Food caravans to the capital if it wasn't coastal, it wouldn't grow as much, but the capital will reach size 20 under tradition well before under liberty you would reach 10 cities for the monarchy portion alone.
Now the other portion of Tradition's happiness bonus results in every 10th citizen in a given city not producing unhappiness, so in your case even that policy alone would give a bigger discount.

And I suspect you started the food routes rather late in your game at which your capital only reached 28, it's actually a higher priority to make the internal one to the capital under tradition than external ones to get the extra food all the sooner. By game game with a coastal start under tradition the capital ought to have reached 32+. I would still expect 30+ end game for either a grassland-landlocked or plains-landlocked tradition capital. (More tiles with farms somewhat offsetting the lack of cargo ships)

 

[Nares]

I don't find Alex, or any other warmonger, to be particularly good at doing anything with those cities.

The point isn't to let the AI leverage the cities. It's to plunge them into crippling unhappiness.

 

[Stacked_Deck]

The point isn't to let the AI leverage the cities. It's to plunge them into crippling unhappiness.

I don't think I've ever seen an AI go unhappy before ideologies, not on immortal anyway. If you let an AI swallow other civs then he just gets more powerful.

 

[Stacked_Deck]

Under Tradition, you'd have used Food caravans to the capital if it wasn't coastal, it wouldn't grow as much, but the capital will reach size 20 under tradition well before under liberty you would reach 10 cities for the monarchy portion alone.
Now the other portion of Tradition's happiness bonus results in every 10th citizen in a given city not producing unhappiness, so in your case even that policy alone would give a bigger discount.

And I suspect you started the food routes rather late in your game at which your capital only reached 28, it's actually a higher priority to make the internal one to the capital under tradition than external ones to get the extra food all the sooner. By game game with a coastal start under tradition the capital ought to have reached 32+. I would still expect 30+ end game for either a grassland-landlocked or plains-landlocked tradition capital. (More tiles with farms somewhat offsetting the lack of cargo ships)

Just tried a tradition-commerce-autocracy domination game. Played as England, grew tall until the renaissance before I started the conquering. I actually quite enjoyed it. Instead of spreading out the troop production I had it centralized in the core cities, first time I've been able to make good use out of the higher level exp buildings and wonders. Missed the upgrade cost reduction and gold generation from honor though, I felt strapped for cash for most of the game.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Tradition by far for expansion via conquest.

Liberty's bonuses are tied into self-expanding wide. (e.g. greatly reduced hammer cost of settlers which also means the capital has fewer turns in which its not growing)

The happiness portion of Liberty actually falls further and further behind Tradition as the game goes on in BNW thanks to food cargo routes.

1 per city for 3 cities will give you 30 hammers/10 turns. This isn't as strong as the monument and aqueduct hammers, but unlike those you can use them on units directly.

Tradition is a better pick for later timings IMO.

 

[wayneb64]

Just tried a tradition-commerce-autocracy domination game. Played as England, grew tall until the renaissance before I started the conquering. I actually quite enjoyed it. Instead of spreading out the troop production I had it centralized in the core cities, first time I've been able to make good use out of the higher level exp buildings and wonders. Missed the upgrade cost reduction and gold generation from honor though, I felt strapped for cash for most of the game.

As long as you have one big coastal city, trade routes should bring in a ton of cash. Autocracy also lets you cut the military maintenance bill.

 

[Stacked_Deck]

As long as you have one big coastal city, trade routes should bring in a ton of cash. Autocracy also lets you cut the military maintenance bill.

When you have a few policies from autocracy you can field armies large enough to attack multiple civs at once, as well as the happiness to make it sustainable. That makes it a real pain in the ass to find safe trade routes, that's why the internal routes are so appealing.

 

[wayneb64]

You need a large navy also to keep the trade routes open. Battleships/carriers are also great to support your troops.