Arguing seems a bit harsh, and I didn't mean to hurt your feelings or anything. I just misread your post somewhat, due to getting distracted (problem with reading forums at work, people try to actually get you to do stuff
).
Trade stolen techs with No Tech Brokering?
- Thread starter Bhruic
- Start date
Arguing seems a bit harsh, and I didn't mean to hurt your feelings or anything. I just misread your post somewhat, due to getting distracted (problem with reading forums at work, people try to actually get you to do stuff
).
Roland Johansen
Deity
Arguing seems a bit harsh, and I didn't mean to hurt your feelings or anything. I just misread your post somewhat, due to getting distracted (problem with reading forums at work, people try to actually get you to do stuff
Yeah, that's tough at work.
My feelings weren't hurt BTW. That doesn't happen that easily. I don't think arguing is a bad thing as long as it happens in a civil way. It's the only way to understand each others point of view. In this case, we more or less agree.
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
so, i finally voted. i picked "yes, i don't see why not". i'm kinda sorta on the fence but not that i'm a "not sure", just that i do see why not and respect the opinions of those who vote no. polls are so hard to word in a way to please everybody! for the 10th or so time, thanks Bh you're my hero of the week
Arlborn
Legendary Noob
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2006
- Messages
- 1,939
A bit off-topic based in another post:
Now really, forbid tech trade of a tech somebody got from a hut in not fun for me. Huts are there to add a bit of a random element early on, and the AI can benefit from them as much as the human. So I don't see it as breaking the balance, even in "no tech brokering".
Now really, forbid tech trade of a tech somebody got from a hut in not fun for me. Huts are there to add a bit of a random element early on, and the AI can benefit from them as much as the human. So I don't see it as breaking the balance, even in "no tech brokering".
Zhahz
PC Gamer
Can't decide.
On one hand, you stole the tech to begin with, so whomever you stole it from isn't happy, and since you're already a thieving dirtbag, who's to care what you do with your stolen gains? (Although there should be all kinds of diplo hits involved with theft in general).
On the other hand, stealing a tech doesn't necessarily mean fully "understanding" a tech, so while you might be able to use it, should you really be able to trade it considering you didn't develop it yourself and probably can't fully explain it to whomever you're trading it to?
With the abstraction level typically found in Civ I overall dislike the current espionage system and espcially dislike the idea of being able to steal tech via this system. <shrug>
On one hand, you stole the tech to begin with, so whomever you stole it from isn't happy, and since you're already a thieving dirtbag, who's to care what you do with your stolen gains? (Although there should be all kinds of diplo hits involved with theft in general).
On the other hand, stealing a tech doesn't necessarily mean fully "understanding" a tech, so while you might be able to use it, should you really be able to trade it considering you didn't develop it yourself and probably can't fully explain it to whomever you're trading it to?
With the abstraction level typically found in Civ I overall dislike the current espionage system and espcially dislike the idea of being able to steal tech via this system. <shrug>
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
with NTB, does anybody know if somebody can demand a tech from me that i got in trade? demands and gifts to help a friend count for WFYABTA so they're treated as trades in that sense already.
onedreamer
Dragon
Yeah, there is no possible doubt about it. Pretty straight forward, you have stolen the books with the secrets of the technology instead of buying them, but the result is the same. You didn't research it yourself hence you can't trade it away.
Well, right now we have (imo) a bug. The in-game help doesn't match the in-game reality. So either the game needs to be changed to match the documentation (mouse-over help), or the documentation needs to be changed to match the reality.
So far, it looks like a majority believe that the game should be changed... But I wouldn't want to make that change if we had a lot of people who seriously disagreed. For the people who voted "yes" - how passionate about that choice are you?
Bh
So far, it looks like a majority believe that the game should be changed... But I wouldn't want to make that change if we had a lot of people who seriously disagreed. For the people who voted "yes" - how passionate about that choice are you?
Bh
Only about as passionate as the voting proportions are right now ... 67%.
It isn't a big deal in practical terms to me; I haven't had the pleasure of actually experiencing tech theft in the game yet.
Sofista
Deity
I voted yes.
I consider NTB as an added clause in the "treaty" that trading anything is - that is, choosing the option means that every treaty involving the trading of technology include the commitment not to give it away. No "treaty" = no commitment whatsoever, you can give away the stolen secret plans at will... although the "buyers" can't. Good old industrial espionage, IMO. Although I'd agree that letting the "deal" be known to the civ that discovered it should add a -1 in diplomacy, similar to the "past events" chance cards produce.
I consider NTB as an added clause in the "treaty" that trading anything is - that is, choosing the option means that every treaty involving the trading of technology include the commitment not to give it away. No "treaty" = no commitment whatsoever, you can give away the stolen secret plans at will... although the "buyers" can't. Good old industrial espionage, IMO. Although I'd agree that letting the "deal" be known to the civ that discovered it should add a -1 in diplomacy, similar to the "past events" chance cards produce.
I voted "leave it alone" here's why: When you trade for tech, you are basically getting free tech that you didn't have to spend commerce points on. However, when you steal a tech, you are basically substituting spy points for beakers so despite the fact that it's a different source, it's still spending commerce points. So although in a literal interpretation you didn't research it yourself, you still had to do basically an equivalent amount of work to get it (which may be slightly more or less based on discounts and modifiers, but it starts from the same points calculation)
Edit: I also agree with sofista's argument.
Edit: I also agree with sofista's argument.
Quagga
Former Dictator
Brokering and stealing are not the same. If I trade you a tech, I can do so with the proviso that you not trade it to someone else. If you steal it from me, I do not have that option. Fix the documentation, not the code.
SwordofStriker
Prince
Is there a way in which we can get some clarification from Firaxis about this how this is supposed to work?
Roland Johansen
Deity
Sorry, Bhruic, I really respect that you ask the community how they feel about a certain rule in the game. But do you really think there are those that couldn't care less about a game rule, but still take the time to vote on the subject?
By the way, this is also exactly the reason why (internet) polls are inherently flawed. They will always be dominated by those who think their opinion matters and feel strongly about it. It won't be dominated by those who have a more mellow feeling about the subject. And of course, you can't extrapolate the result of a poll taken among those who vote to those who don't vote as they are typically a different type of people and won't feel the same about it (if voting is voluntarily).
Still, among the various ways to get a decision of a community, it is still probably the fairest. So it's good to create a poll. But don't ever see the results of a poll as the truth or as representative.
I always play with no tech brokering, and I don't think the current behaviour should be changed.
The option was designed to apply to techs that were traded for.
There are currently several ways to obtain technology (research, trading, stealing, goody hut, using a great leader, Liberalism, and the Oracle), and I don't think it was meant to apply to all non researched tech.
The option was designed to apply to techs that were traded for.
There are currently several ways to obtain technology (research, trading, stealing, goody hut, using a great leader, Liberalism, and the Oracle), and I don't think it was meant to apply to all non researched tech.
Quagga
Former Dictator
^^ And don't forget using Worldbuilder!
Same here. There are good arguments either way, only reason I voted no is because I don't see the AI being able to take as much advantage of it as the human.
I rarely play heavy espionage games, but those would change a lot if stolen techs could no longer be traded - one of the big advantages in stealing instead of trading for is that the tech can be traded for others.
Still, I'm not totally opposed to the change. It just would need to be justified and all other methods of acquiring techs also considered. I would say that of my two main methods to look into this in my earlier posts currently game is using [2] ("Techs can be acquired by trading and by other means") where I would advocate that if change were to be made, it should then be [1] ("Techs can be acquired by researching every single beaker oneself and by other means") instead of something in the middle ("Techs can be acquired by trading, stealing, and by other means" would be what one would state if stolen techs could no longer be traded with that being the only change).
Still, I'm not totally opposed to the change. It just would need to be justified and all other methods of acquiring techs also considered. I would say that of my two main methods to look into this in my earlier posts currently game is using [2] ("Techs can be acquired by trading and by other means") where I would advocate that if change were to be made, it should then be [1] ("Techs can be acquired by researching every single beaker oneself and by other means") instead of something in the middle ("Techs can be acquired by trading, stealing, and by other means" would be what one would state if stolen techs could no longer be traded with that being the only change).
Sorry, Bhruic, I really respect that you ask the community how they feel about a certain rule in the game. But do you really think there are those that couldn't care less about a game rule, but still take the time to vote on the subject?
Well, there's a difference in my mind between "couldn't care less", and "care passionately".
No, but there's no other realistic way to gather opinions on a subject. I mean, I'd love to send a flyer to everyone, but I don't think that'd work.
Right now, I'm still unsure as to what I'd like to do. My personal feeling is that the documentation should be correct, and therefore the game should be changed. But it's a semi-major change for certain game play styles, so I wouldn't like to force it on people who are drastically opposed to it.
Bh
