Trade suggestions (caution:rant inside)

[Chiyochan]

Playing Civ 4 Rise and fall of civ has given me new perspective in how much i hate diplomacy in civilization

despite being the only game i've ever played where i could actualy threaten someone into giving me technology, all the civs in that game are greedy, they will want four technologies just for one and often the beaker value TRIPLES for it.

alot of the problem is there just isnt depth, you cant trade anything of value and civs reject trades of certain things for certain other things, (like say a citie for a technology) They never vassalize either, whenever theyre about to be killed by some other asshat they just sit on their hands and tell you theyre fine, trade is often more and not a joke, the number of resources you have just don't matter, trade was a big deal in the real world but in civ 4 it is the least develouped aspect, theres no way to controll trade routes in any meaningfully way but adding more of them,

Diplomacy definitely needs work, its a boolean peice of junk that needs scale and colour, allow Civs to trade anything for anything and make them ponder the decisions smartly instead of the blind greed that exists now, let them capitalize on opportunity, marching armys of threatening to the borders of your city when they make demands, If i've been razing theyre neighbors they should think twice about defying me, and finaly, make it universal, whatever you do it should work for the AI too not just the player, I'm tired of being public enemy number one because thats just how the AI was programmed and I'm tired of hearing people tell me i should just deal with it and use it to my advantage, giving 3 technologies and 400 gold and having them still refuse me a map at friendly is not an advantage!, If turning the AI loose on the civs themselves breaks the game, diplomacy IS broken,

Moving onto trade
If possible I would like customizable trade routes, a trade screen if you will, opens up and you may select which city with which to trade and which resources from which ports and cities, You should be able to trade more things than simple standard resources, for example, Porceline tea and pepper where all traded at extremely high prices. and each standard resource should produce some amount of trade able resources other than one, trade rights and how AIs think of trade would need to be reworked for this to be viable.

 

[Afforess]

I understand where you are coming from, considering that in many games I find it an advantage to NOT contact other civilizations for fear of their ceaseless demands. In ROM I do have civilizations offer vassalage to me when they are at peace too. It often happens when we are at least friendly and nearby on the map. The farther away they are, the less likely it will happen. I believe the settings are in the XML, and there is a max distance so that you won't have vassals across the entire map.

Diplomacy can seem like crap with the AI not trading techs or asking for outrageous demands, however, it is really quite advanced. That map you wanted? They probably knew that revealing their map would show you undiscovered places where they planned on settling. Often, AI refuse to trade newly researched techs in order to remain ahead of the pack, technologically. Also, it seems hypocritical to complain that the AI will hold back valuable resources, techs, and maps from you when you would do exactly the same thing in the same position. Again, you can tweak your AI in the XML files. Also, you seem to expect the AI to act completely rationally, this is not so, "virtual emotions" have been programmed into their actions. It is more noticeable with aggressive AI than peaceful ones. You complained about razing neighbor cities, and other AI still didn't fear you... This is because the AI was likely another AI's friend. This would lead the friend's AI to hate you, not fear you. The game was made so that AI would act like humans, not processors.

Your complaints about trade are interesting, but would add alot of complexity to a already complex game. Regardless, if you don't want to trade with civilization XYZ, then don't sign an open borders agreement. Problem solved. Your merchants are in a free market, we don't demand they trade with who we want, so they trade with who makes the most money.

Definitely a thought provoking rant, if I may say so.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Yes, I agree that the AI often makes to many demands and each time it gets angrier with me. Sometimes I would like to be able to have the same function that they have "I am too busy to fight a war at the moment." to stop their incessent asking me to fight. I especially dislike their asking when I do not have the tech necessary to get troops "over there". There is a huge lag between being able to reach another continent and being able to build transport ships.

I have learned to read the fine print when an AI asks to be my vassal. Often as not they do it to make me go to war with the civ that is rolling over them If, before agreeing for them to be my vassal I broker peace treaties between them and their agressors, they often as not don't want to be my vassals any more. This shows that there is some complex stuff going on in the code.

 

[Carwyn]

I'm learning that you can force an AI to become your vassal (at least sometimes) by going to war with them and taking a city or two, then force them to capitulate. If you don't want that city, give it back to them after they become your vassal.

Also, if you turn off tech trading, then you don't get the "give me your tech or die!" messages, you really aren't bothered nearly as much by the AI. You can try the no tech brokering too, where you can only trade the tech you research. There are a lot of rather interesting options to try in game play that make it definitely a different game.

We do often manipulate our trading partners by shutting down borders for a few turns, then re-opening them. That will force a rearrangement. You can also get trade going with a select partner by making sure you have open borders, a road between you, sending trade caravans and trading goods - this will add up to more trade with that person. You can build up an AI to be a good trading partner by helping to keep their economy strong and using these tips to focus your trades. There is actually quite a lot you can do.

I've been playing with restricted tech trading for ages with my friends, trying a single player with tech trading on and it is easier to play when you can trade tech.

 

[Chiyochan]

No, this is not just about GIVE ME STUFF OR I GET MAD, diplomacy, all of dimplomacy is broken, there is nothing complex going on here in regards to whats going on during that window process, the AI does not have any ability to look at the big picture, only preprogrammed 'attitudes' that funnel them into stereotypes,

for the record, by outragous I mean if i want one marginaly outdated tech i will need 3 modern ones to 'afford it' in the AIS eyes,

 

[styfken]

No, this is not just about GIVE ME STUFF OR I GET MAD, diplomacy, all of dimplomacy is broken, there is nothing complex going on here in regards to whats going on during that window process, the AI does not have any ability to look at the big picture, only preprogrammed 'attitudes' that funnel them into stereotypes,

for the record, by outragous I mean if i want one marginaly outdated tech i will need 3 modern ones to 'afford it' in the AIS eyes,

I agree, diplomacy is very poor in the game. I have also been in situations that the AI would not give me a map, for no apparent reason, when we are already in the medieval era and every little location is already discovered. I just wanted the map to see the results of a war just next door to me, not in another continent, but no AI would trade a map, it was redded out. And I was quite powerful and could also offer a lot of money or trading goods.

Technology trading is also quite poor, I now play with NO technology trading and NO technology broking. Otherwise you end up with all the AI's getting fair deals in tech trading BETWEEN them, but when YOU want to trade with them, they come up with rediculous demands.

In general it is not easy to keep the AI happy, WITHOUT going to a war on their side. If you do not share the same religion, then you will pretty soon become an enemy, even if you have never started a war against them, just because you don't want to abide by their demands (trade, go to war, stop trading with someone else, etc.). The only hope is later in the game, if your civics match theirs, which at least offers some way of peacefully being friends with an AI.

I wouldn't mind having a severe penalty if the gamer declares war to a friendly civ. Something like +5 unhappiness per city or similar. And the other way around of course. In that way, at least you could strategically decide which civs you want to be friends with and know that you have to pay a big penalty if you decide to stab them in the back, and vice versa. You could COUNT more on your friends like that. Perhaps make it like that in the modern era, not before that. At the moment you never know what your "friends" may do against you, once you become militarily weaker, and agreed, you are also too free to stab them in the back as well.

I also agree with trading, and in general, the peaceful part of the game could be deeper. It is NOT the fault of RoM though, or zappara, who is doing an excellent job, lets put things straight here. The way the AI behaves depends pretty much on SDK, and I don't think zappara can change it.