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[GS] Trading diplo favour - is this how it's supposed to be?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by incroc, Jun 25, 2019.

  1. incroc

    incroc Chieftain

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    Post patch I've sold diplo favour for outrageous sums, the worst being 77 favour for 115 gpt (in the latest GoTM. Later I sold 30 for around 50gpt.

    It's always been very highly valued by the AI, but this seems like a distinct upturn. Which seems unbalanced to me, as it's not that hard to come across.

    Does this happen to everyone or has it been just my particular games?
     
  2. Minou

    Minou Prince

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    Yup this is normal. It seems like the neutral value is 15g for 1DF and it gets higher with good relations.

    This makes Suzerain status very valuable as it is basically worth 30gpt in addition to the specific benefits.

    This leads to some funny things too. One turn I “promised” two AIs to stop settling near then and earned 30DF from each. I sold it for about 300g plus another 14gpt. It also makes Hungary even better as you can bounce Amani to a city state with one envoy, levy their army for 2 more envoys and then use Amani and the gold to get another city state in an endless cycle.

    I for one think the AI grossly over values DF. It is the broken peaceful game equivalent of pillaging. What sucks about pillage and DF being worth so much is it tilts the balance even further against building stuff. Who cares about 4gpt from Markets, when each turn you can get 30g selling 2DF from one city state or can pillage 200g from a mine?
     
  3. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

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    Yeah, this was in the last patch as well. It sells for more to civs who are going for diplomatic victory, which usually means Sweden.

    And yeah, it is completely broken.
     
  4. kemmi

    kemmi Chieftain

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    I think Df should not be tradable, like tourism or faith. You should earn the DV, not buy it. Feels wrong to me
     
  5. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    It feels very cynical and exploitative to be able to trade for DF, but it also feels realistic. Since DF is used to "buy votes", bargaining under the table for it makes sense. It's how things get done in a parliamentary system. It can be a little corrupt if you are asking for DF for a vote against the best interests of the DF seller.

    But all of this is a realistic, albeit abstract interpretation of how things really work. It's the kind of thing that lobbyists, or Speakers of the House, or Senate Majority Leaders do to rally support to get bills passed when a majority of legislators don't support it normally.
     
    kryat likes this.
  6. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    Well it shouldnt cause a major if not the most important leverage in diplomacy is economy.

    The issue is that the AI values it a little too highly in comparison to its effective impact.
     
    ChocolateShake likes this.
  7. Troy Bruckner

    Troy Bruckner Prince

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    It would be less of an issue if the Ai voted more rationally. Instead I see them often use 10 votes to shut down great prophet points after all religions have already been founded.
     
    Bosque and Ziad like this.
  8. kryat

    kryat Prince

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    Ironically, it seems the fears of being able to buy favor being too much of an advantage have been quickly overshadowed by the reality of selling favor.

    I think it’s fine being able to buy/sell favor. You’re giving yourself less power when it comes time to vote in exchange for immediate economic power.

    Conversely, I haven’t heard of many people trying to buy favor to win diplomatically.
     
  9. incroc

    incroc Chieftain

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    Textbook Civ AI :lol:

    I agree though, the price you pay in giving up DF is almost zero. Compared with selling lux it's so different, where you actually lose something and/or possibly give the AI happy/ecstatic bonus. Same with strategic resources.

    Better voting would've made it trickier, as some resolutions really suck for your game. Like no great scientists earned.
     
  10. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    Well, this is effectively the AI trying to preserve the status quo (land-locked civ's like to shut down Great Admirals too). Sort of like when they vote for City Center over other districts all the time.
     
  11. Dotsworthy

    Dotsworthy Chieftain

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    I think trading gold or resources for votes would be fine if it wasn't so over valued.

    My biggest bugbear with the world Congress is that it is now tied to the diplomatic victory but is basically a lottery. It's sometimes really hard to follow the logic of what the AI is voting for and because of the ever increasing cost of a vote you can't brute force it either.

    It would be really good if diplomatic visibility was tied in somehow, so if you had good alliances or used your spies correctly you could see what everyone was planning to vote for (but maybe not how much favour they are going to spend). Then maybe use the deal screen to convince AIs to vote in favour of certain resolutions.
     
  12. Pfeffersack

    Pfeffersack Deity

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    Trading DF at all might be debatable, but if it is (and stays) in the game the AI logic about it should get adjusted IMO:

    - AI will never sell you DF anymore as soon as you have acquired the first diplomatic victoty point. That was understandable as long as the winning treshold was 10 points, but now that we are at 20 it could make sense to adjust the AI that they stop selling you DF after acquiring the 2nd DVP at least.
    - on the other hand, any AI (except those going vor a DV anyway) should value DF a bit more like strategic ressources and should base prices and willingness to trade it at all on the amount they have already. The nature of the voting system means largely that DF is subject to diminishing returns. So I think that should be the core of the logic. Out of the head, a minium value of maybe 60 DF could be a kind of "target" for any AI - because that amount allows them to demand a promise from someone, if needed or to call an a Special WC session and allows then still allows them to cast one extra vote on the three regular votings of a WC. "Minimum value" would mean that AIs would either completely refuse to sell DF, when being below or at least demand a very high price for it. And for those AIs not targeting a DP buying DF beyond the minimum value should result in them offering much less (maybe 1/2 price)
     
  13. Bosque

    Bosque Warlord

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    This could be eliminated by a simple Hotfix. Once all religions have been founded, shutting down Great Prophet points should disappear as an option.
     
  14. Dotsworthy

    Dotsworthy Chieftain

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    Great Prophet points contribute to faith now, so it's still a viable option when trying to stop another player from affording as many apostles or rock bands.
     

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