Trading For Luxuries / Resources - Worth it?

[duxup]

Background: I gave Civ V a run for a while after the release and recently have returned and been giving it a spin after the last big patch.

One change from Civ IV to V I've found is that I don't bother trading for luxuries or resources much at all in Civ V. I find the diplomacy to be a bit too unpredictable and the moods of the other civs swing so much that trading for anything I want / need seems dangerous. I worry about having a sudden change of mood (or just plain not wanting to trade anymore) plunging my civ into unhappiness when I'm at war or strategic resources pulled out from under me weakening some of my units.

The few times I do make a few trades are post war when maybe I've got a few cities I've annexed and my civ is a bit unhappy and I need some luxuries to make them happy until I finish annexing or destroying those cites / build some stuff to make everyone happy again.

As for selling I've not found that most of the time AI doesn't offer much luxuries / resources. That also doesn't seem worth bothering with much.

Does anyone else feel the same way or are folks trading like crazy and I'm just being silly?

 

[milk steak]

I'm trading like crazy every time I have excess luxury resources. I find it's a great way to develop relationships too.

 

[duxup]

I'm trading like crazy every time I have excess luxury resources. I find it's a great way to develop relationships too.

That is a good point. I'm just never focused enough to know who I want as allies and who I don't until I make a move and go to war. Maybe I need to adjust that.

 

[ID_Fox]

It's taken me awhile to get used to trading regularly for resources. It's slightly annoying to have to repeat trades every 30 turns but ultimately I think its more profitable that way.

In my games I usually have major problems with empire happiness and so trading for extra luxuries is a necessity. In games where I need money I usually find I can trade a luxury for 300 gold. In games where I find I need luxuries and don't have much extra I can buy a luxury for 30 turns for around that amount.

It's always worth taking the extra time to look at your options though imo.

 

[vexing]

you're generally better off making an alliance with a city state to procure their resources if possible. you should almost always be selling your luxuries for 300 gold, your extra strategics for 45 per.

there are exceptions,such as a city state quest is to procure a specific luxury, or it can cause a we love the king day in your capital and you're dipping into unhappiness.

 

[voek]

If I'm correct you can sell the luxury after obtaining the City State quest and/or the we Love the King day. Once the effect is triggered you don't have to actually own the luxury anymore. Sell, sell, sell and rush buy, bribe or upgrade the things you really need.

 

[slobberinbear]

you're generally better off making an alliance with a city state to procure their resources if possible. you should almost always be selling your luxuries for 300 gold, your extra strategics for 45 per.

there are exceptions,such as a city state quest is to procure a specific luxury, or it can cause a we love the king day in your capital and you're dipping into unhappiness.

If I can buy a resource for 30 turns from an AI civ for around 300 gold, but I need to spend 750+ gold to acquire it from a city-state for around the same duration, isn't buying from the AI the better call unless I want the other stuff (culture, food, free units)?

 

[ras9929]

Anyone have the formula for degredation of influence with a city-state?

Wondering what the true cost is in the following scenario
- I have 1 copy of resource A
- City State has one copy of resource B which I do not have

I sell resource A to obtain 300GP and add in 200 GP to gain 65 influence points with City State, which in turn gives me resource B

From a happiness perspective, it should be a net (trading 1 unique resource for another)
So it looks like I'm really paying 200GP for any strategic resources + the attribute of that CS (military, culture, maritime)

Also the various policies in Patronage could make this actually a pretty nice math trade

Let alone if you are Siam

Curious though under what conditions does my influence degrade at a rate less or equal to the 30 turns of my resource trade?

Anyone already run the numbers?

 

[vexing]

If I can buy a resource for 30 turns from an AI civ for around 300 gold, but I need to spend 750+ gold to acquire it from a city-state for around the same duration, isn't buying from the AI the better call unless I want the other stuff (culture, food, free units)?

sure, but in reality the culture or maritime food or even free units are worth much more than the +5 happiness.

the patronage tree is really powerful, if you have the top 3, scholasticism and educated elite, when you spend 500 you gain about 80 influence, you start at 20 so that puts you at 100, you lose < 1 per turn with a non hostile state, so it's 500 gold for 40+ turns of luxury + strategics + science + eventually a random great person.

also, often times they'll give a quest that you'll eventually be completing to maintain the alliance.

 

[slobberinbear]

sure, but in reality the culture or maritime food or even free units are worth much more than the +5 happiness.

the patronage tree is really powerful, if you have the top 3, scholasticism and educated elite, when you spend 500 you gain about 80 influence, you start at 20 so that puts you at 100, you lose < 1 per turn with a non hostile state, so it's 500 gold for 40+ turns of luxury + strategics + science + eventually a random great person.

also, often times they'll give a quest that you'll eventually be completing to maintain the alliance.

Yeah, I love Patronage but it comes at a time when I typically am happiness-starved, so I go Piety. Maybe I just need to focus on cash generation and go Patronage and get my happiness from city-states.

I think Patronage needs to be paired with Commerce ... even with luxury selling to AIs. More cash!

 

[Michl2602]

Trading in this game is kind of a science and depends much of the quality (and especially speed) of your scouting and your clue on diplomacy. I actually don't think anymore, that diplomacy in this game is bad, but I know that this is a part of the game I've much left to learn.
So I would love to say: "I'm trading like mad", but my trades are limited by those abilities.

Trading in ciV is a game in the game. If you don't play it, you'll never get much out of it.

 

[Michl2602]

Curious though under what conditions does my influence degrade at a rate less or equal to the 30 turns of my resource trade?

When you take Patronage your influence degrades only 0.75/move (if CS is not hostil; hostil CSs I conquer or leave alone, but surely not throw money on) and with Philantropy (a SP of Patronage-tree) you buy 25% more influence with your gold.

Those should get your maths going.

 

[elthrasher]

If I can buy a resource for 30 turns from an AI civ for around 300 gold, but I need to spend 750+ gold to acquire it from a city-state for around the same duration, isn't buying from the AI the better call unless I want the other stuff (culture, food, free units)?

Depending on AI civs for luxuries can lead to ruin. They are very likely to turn on you unexpectedly. City-states are more reliable. Just keep your economy in good shape and you can keep bribing them.

DO sell your luxuries and excess strategic resources as much as possible.

DON'T buy luxuries from the AI and buy strategic resources only when absolutely necessary.

That's the best policy.

 

[Civ4Brains]

Trading in this game is kind of a science and depends much of the quality (and especially speed) of your scouting and your clue on diplomacy. I actually don't think anymore, that diplomacy in this game is bad, but I know that this is a part of the game I've much left to learn.
So I would love to say: "I'm trading like mad", but my trades are limited by those abilities.

Trading in ciV is a game in the game. If you don't play it, you'll never get much out of it.

Totally agree. If you take the time to understand how diplo works (and it does) in CiV you really begin to appreciate the role it plays in the development of your empire.

Relations will determine the consistency, quality and quantity of your two vital trade options throughout the game: RA's (for efficient research) and Luxuries for (in the majority of circumstances trading lux's for just seems to work out more efficient than trading for ).

Maintaining relations, knowing which ones will eventually sour, who you might need to DoW on in the future, which Civ's are inevitably going to conflict with one another, who has what resources, their proximity and possible status (friendly/allied) with CS's etc. all this is stuff you can figure out way ahead of time and strategise for.

 

[trueblue]

I never buy luxuries. sometimes i trade one for one but never buy. you should never rely on buying them for happiness.

 

[Muskie]

I always trade, I try to be friendly with as many AIs as I can. I like playing the Arabs too for the bonus luxury resources. I'm also a fan of Patronage and the Greeks. Giving the French a go, hoping to break my losing streak by going down to Prince...

 

[duxup]

As always Civfanatics is awesome. Thanks everyone. I've been trying to sell stuff. I am surprised how much work it takes to get some civs friendly enough to pay reasonable prices. Some civs will only offer me their extra horses for a great resource (I DO NOT NEED HORSES, NOBODY DOES!).

I've also tried spending excess gold on city states for culture, yeah that works like a charm. At first I was hesitant to throw down 500 gold to some city states but it seems to pay off.

 

[Pazyryk]

I used to trade to obtain as many AI luxury resources as possible. As I've stepped up to Immortal difficulty (and with the new patches), I almost never do this at all now. In fact, I would only do this now under one condition: Going for cultural victory and I have the Piety policy that gives culture for extra happiness. Otherwise, never.

Instead, you should trade away EVERYTHING you can for money. A luxury resource usually trades for 300 gp for 30 turns, which means that your developed luxury tile is worth 10 gp/turn (on top of its actual tile yield). If you have to, take 110 gp and 6 gp per turn (these deals are never quite 300 but nearly so). That 300 gp can buy you >30 turns of alliance with a city state (even without Patronage) so you get the luxury back plus the CS bonus. (That statement is a little oversimplified because I'm counting the maintenance rather than initial investment, and ignoring possible competition with AI players for a CS. However, considered over the whole game, the >30 turns for 300 gp should be accurate.) So it is always a good deal to trade all luxuries away (even your last one) as long as there are city states remaining with luxuries that you don't have. Keep only barely enough to stay above 0 happiness. Once you've monopolized all the city states with unique resources, use the money to rush buy happiness buildings. After all this, I might consider trading for a luxury resource while pursuing a science victory, but I've never needed to (even with >4 size 30 cities).

The above rules apply for any victory except culture (and maybe even that). But it is especially important in domination. It is very tempting to trade for a luxury when happiness becomes a problem. However, this is a trap. Your puppeted cities will grow to fill that room you give them (all the while not building happy buildings), then your relations will sour and you will loose those resources all at once. Better to stay in the -1 to -9 range so those puppeted cities will build happiness buildings. Whenever happiness goes positive, you want your core cities to grow (or take another city) to drive that back to -1 to stop puppet growth. Change all puppet city tiles to trade posts (not mines, they won't work them) to slow their growth. If managed properly, you will spend perhaps half the time at -1 to -9 (encouraging happy buildings construction in puppets) and the other half barely positive (allowing core city growth).

 

[Michl2602]

I am surprised how much work it takes to get some civs friendly enough to pay reasonable prices. Some civs will only offer me their extra horses for a great resource (I DO NOT NEED HORSES, NOBODY DOES!).

If they offer something you don't like decline and make an offer of your own. Often they don't have much gold, but have solid GPT, so you can suggest to give you their gold + some GPT.
As far as I saw they never suggest trades that contain GPT, but they often accept it, and sometimes they are even thankful then.

 

[Pazyryk]

Yes, don't wait for their suggestions. Also note that they say "I don't see how this is possible" (or something like that) both when they feel you have to little to offer OR when they don't think they have enough to offer. Most civs at Neutral or better will give you 300 gp or near this in gp + gp/turn, although sometimes this goes down to 150 gp or so later in the game (but at least once I've seen a civ at Guarded give 300 gp).

I can't stress enough how important selling resources for cash is. Use that cash for RA's first and then CS relations (to get unique luxuries) and then rush buying. My typical Science Victory moved from ~1960 or so to the early 1700's. (1705 on an Emperor and 1720 on an Immortal are my best.)