Tradition China Science Victory Guide - Win Before Turn 300!

I've tried this three times now at Immortal level. In my first two games I bailed out at around 100 turns both times. In both cases, I hemorrhaged money, and had no idea how to help that. In the first case, I failed to get a religion. In the second case, I got a religion by moiving up the shrines, but lost a city to a neighbor that noticed how weak my army was. I also didn't get the Pyramids the second time around. In my third game I got a corner start with plenty of forests and a peaceful neighbor, and plenty of ruins. I founded a religion and got the Oracle. But Ethiopia became a runaway, and won a CV on t294. I was 2d in science, 13 techs behind, and had just risen to 4th in pop.

I have no doubt that this strategy works for you a certain amount of the time, but think it's too dependent on plentiful chopping, but a lot can go wrong for an approach that has the downside of having to stick to a strict regimen (ie, less fun).

Sorry for the late response on this. Haven't had much time for Vox lately.

Rather than argue right or wrong, or ask for details, I'll instead ask this: what about this strategy do you feel makes it more difficult than any other Tradition strategy? I saw your post in the Non-warmonger thread, and it seems like you've had at least some success with it, so knowing the difference could help me improve the guide.
 
After failing this strategy several times on immortal, I tried it as a one city challenge and won (science on 318, didn't get a religion but a religion with mastery was spread to me). The game is strange sometimes. Its also hilarious to have 382 turns of We love the Empress day built up

Overall I'm having similar thoughts to Txurce. Are you sure your early game techs and build order are posted correctly? The reason I ask is after trying to follow your order closely several times I was not able to build that first archer at that time; trapping had not yet been discovered once. I also find that you shouldn't get calendar just for pyramids, if your luxuries are on plantations its ok but otherwise you are spending a lot of tech just for a wonder you really should only pick if you have a ton of forests

I think that the issue might be you are trying to prioritize all of shrine, monument and council, walls in certain cities, and you want wells because they are such a strong building. There aren't really hammers left for military, and gold can be an issue depending on your luxuries. I also think that ancestor worship is somewhat weak, perhaps God of Wisdom is an option, it might scale worse but it would provide immediate faith in newer cities, for this build I think that early faith is much more important than late faith. I want to make ancestor worship work, especially since its historical for China, but right now I think its just a weak pantheon. You are making a lot of investments in extra culture during ancient, I wonder if that is really necessary?

PS - I would consider grabbing the Aesthetics opener if you fear a culture win, I haven't done the math but I suspect it can pay for itself at least for a while and you should be very secure against enemy culture wins (also get that world science initiative up ASAP)
 
Sorry for the late response on this. Haven't had much time for Vox lately.

Rather than argue right or wrong, or ask for details, I'll instead ask this: what about this strategy do you feel makes it more difficult than any other Tradition strategy? I saw your post in the Non-warmonger thread, and it seems like you've had at least some success with it, so knowing the difference could help me improve the guide.

First, let me reiterate that your guide didn't work for me, but may well work for others. Three games was enough to turn me off it, but isn't a definitive test by any means. And I didn't say it's more difficult than any other Tradition strategy -- just that it's not the sure thing you advertise.

For some reason, I never had the sort of growth I expected. I followed the plan as closely as possible, but didn't feel I was racking up the sort of GA/WLTK population explosions you predict. I don't know if some of this is due to not getting near the GW's or dominant religion that the strategy calls for. The approach requires forests, accommodating neighbors, no Ethiopia, and a some luck with GW's.

And that's my main problem with it. What's not fun about it -- following a pretty rigid blueprint -- occasionally seemed counter-productive as well. Speaking broadly, the strategy is built around huge city growth, with the sort of culture necessary for any Tradition civ. Yet the strategy emphasizes culture in ways that I think are sub-optimal. Foremost is the super-early builds for councils. I think that on Immortal, if you want to guarantee a religion, you have to build shrines first. You definitely shouldn't build them third (or fourth, if walls are needed, as you wrote). But you lead with Councils because of your choice of Ancestor Worship. That may not be the best choice, in that case. God of All Creation often seems preferable to me, especially early on, and gives me more flexibility in build order.
 
After failing this strategy several times on immortal, I tried it as a one city challenge and won (science on 318, didn't get a religion but a religion with mastery was spread to me). The game is strange sometimes. Its also hilarious to have 382 turns of We love the Empress day built up

Overall I'm having similar thoughts to Txurce. Are you sure your early game techs and build order are posted correctly? The reason I ask is after trying to follow your order closely several times I was not able to build that first archer at that time; trapping had not yet been discovered once. I also find that you shouldn't get calendar just for pyramids, if your luxuries are on plantations its ok but otherwise you are spending a lot of tech just for a wonder you really should only pick if you have a ton of forests

I think that the issue might be you are trying to prioritize all of shrine, monument and council, walls in certain cities, and you want wells because they are such a strong building. There aren't really hammers left for military, and gold can be an issue depending on your luxuries. I also think that ancestor worship is somewhat weak, perhaps God of Wisdom is an option, it might scale worse but it would provide immediate faith in newer cities, for this build I think that early faith is much more important than late faith. I want to make ancestor worship work, especially since its historical for China, but right now I think its just a weak pantheon. You are making a lot of investments in extra culture during ancient, I wonder if that is really necessary?

PS - I would consider grabbing the Aesthetics opener if you fear a culture win, I haven't done the math but I suspect it can pay for itself at least for a while and you should be very secure against enemy culture wins (also get that world science initiative up ASAP)

I also had the same problem with the archer 2 out of 3 games.
 
Some things to consider. I have to step out very soon, but I'll hammer out a bunch of test games tonight and see what happens.

As for Shrines, I was building them third because I simply wasn't having an issue founding, and I often put multiple faith Civs in my games while testing. If this is indeed a common issue though, they could most likely be pushed up to second or possibly even first build depending on some stuff.

God of All Creation would indeed be a better culture generator. but it's going to make founding a much more difficult task.

Also, just to clarify, were either of you playing on speeds other than standard?
 
Some things to consider. I have to step out very soon, but I'll hammer out a bunch of test games tonight and see what happens.

As for Shrines, I was building them third because I simply wasn't having an issue founding, and I often put multiple faith Civs in my games while testing. If this is indeed a common issue though, they could most likely be pushed up to second or possibly even first build depending on some stuff.

God of All Creation would indeed be a better culture generator. but it's going to make founding a much more difficult task.

Also, just to clarify, were either of you playing on speeds other than standard?

I was playing everything standard on a Communitas map.

Shrines paired with God of All Creation is the sweet spot for me in terms of founding a religion and generating culture. The best part about it is that it works for every civ (although better choices may exist for some).
 
Some things to consider. I have to step out very soon, but I'll hammer out a bunch of test games tonight and see what happens.

As for Shrines, I was building them third because I simply wasn't having an issue founding, and I often put multiple faith Civs in my games while testing. If this is indeed a common issue though, they could most likely be pushed up to second or possibly even first build depending on some stuff.

God of All Creation would indeed be a better culture generator. but it's going to make founding a much more difficult task.

Also, just to clarify, were either of you playing on speeds other than standard?
Standard speed, Pangea.

The challenge I think is getting culture and faith in the right amounts. For ancestor worship, if you are earning 5 science for every citizen, that would mean that god of wisdom generates more faith, which late in the game you will easily be getting. It also comes into play much faster, that 2 faith right when you found the city is awesome, and Ancestor only working on multiples of 3 really slows it down. I think you can make a case that Ancestor Worship ought to be buffed, this is the ideal circumstance for it and its still not great (I think its beating Wisdom for a brief period in classical-medieval though). The perk is obviously extra culture, but I think if you can manage to get some culture from your environment (city states, ruins, natural wonders ,or a luxury) you should be alright.

If I got a start with absolutely no extra culture, I would consider god of all creation, otherwise the lack of scaling hurts. I would consider investing in scout first, especially if you get to found on top of forest or jungle, if you get a culture from ruins or city state its so good for tradition.
 
Standard speed, Pangea.

The challenge I think is getting culture and faith in the right amounts. For ancestor worship, if you are earning 5 science for every citizen, that would mean that god of wisdom generates more faith, which late in the game you will easily be getting. It also comes into play much faster, that 2 faith right when you found the city is awesome, and Ancestor only working on multiples of 3 really slows it down. I think you can make a case that Ancestor Worship ought to be buffed, this is the ideal circumstance for it and its still not great (I think its beating Wisdom for a brief period in classical-medieval though). The perk is obviously extra culture, but I think if you can manage to get some culture from your environment (city states, ruins, natural wonders ,or a luxury) you should be alright.

If I got a start with absolutely no extra culture, I would consider god of all creation, otherwise the lack of scaling hurts. I would consider investing in scout first, especially if you get to found on top of forest or jungle, if you get a culture from ruins or city state its so good for tradition.

When you say extra culture, do you mean resources or luxuries that can be developed and then pair well with certain pantheons? Or do you mean that certain tiles inherently contribute culture? If so, do you go with Wisdom as default?

I also build the scout when I start on something that gets chopped -- and sometimes move one tile to do it. I see your point as an overall approach with a Tradition start; I'm benefiting from it in my current game, but actually got lucky and naled two culture ruins with my warrior! I might try going shrine second a few times and see what happens.
 
Still out and about, but thought I'd respond while I have a moment.

Thanks for the game settings info. I was pretty sure you guys played standard stuff, but figured I should rule it out.

For Scouts, I waver back and forth on when to build them. I simply hate being reliant on getting a culture ruin to really have them pay out. My hope was to have a start that didn't count on meeting a valuable CS first or getting high value ruins.

On the topic of buffing Ancestor Worship, it's tough to justify buffing oddball, terrain agnostic pantheons like this. Their uses are niche, often limited to specific Civs and Policies, but if they become too strong then they almost immediately become the dominant strat for that Civ. My gut tells me that Ancestor Worship is in an alright spot though, as it's hard to find faith and culture that also works in any situation, which is the reason I chose it.

My main goal with the guide was to make something that could be applied to any start and be followed as a paint by numbers victory, but it seems I've failed. I'm going to see what I can do about cutting Pyramids from the build, which should hopefully free up early hammers from culture generation into faith, making it much more consistent.
 
I meant a non-pantheon source of culture (furs, dyes, etc). You can maybe count resources that improve into culture, but its certainly worse. The flaw of wisdom is culture, and it is a significant weakness, you can miss Hanging Gardens, Oracle, and others as a result. Typically when choosing between culture and faith, I pick whatever I have less of. Ancestor Worship can provide both, its just hard to set up. Perhaps it could be changed so that its based on total population, so that if all my cities are at 8 pop I still faith for that population.

I wouldn't say you failed BTW, I have enjoyed and learned from this guide. Really I would say its a compliment to the game's AI that you cannot just do a paint by numbers victory on higher difficulties. I think the guide is a solid build order for the right situation, the first time I tried it it worked perfectly, maybe just make the wording more flexible.
 
I wouldn't say you failed BTW, I have enjoyed and learned from this guide. Really I would say its a compliment to the game's AI that you cannot just do a paint by numbers victory on higher difficulties. I think the guide is a solid build order for the right situation, the first time I tried it it worked perfectly, maybe just make the wording more flexible.

Agreed.
 
Two things I'd like to add.
1. Every time I played Tradition, there were surprisingly very few tiles being worked. Most pop are in specialists slots, most food comes from wells/water mills and growth buildings and just a few of them are working on food tiles. So I think farms aren't so key, fishing resources are neat too, and you are researching Trapping early.
2. Going peaceful doesn't mean having a weak army. You need to deal with threats, but also deal with the barbs that slow your progress, and it's real nice to have an intervention army to protect nearby CS from invasions. The bonus you get from CS alliances worth more the taller you settle. In an empire of just 4 cities, having 2 CS allied is great: buffer, more friendly units, proportionally higher yields. I agree you don't need Statecraft for this, as you are going to focus on your 2-3 closest CS.
 
So I hammered out a few games last night, but I was too tired to make a post.

Pyramids can definitely be cut from the build, and Shrines can easily be built second, possibly first. With this, I was usually first or second religion even in games with hand picked faith civs. On top of that, the change to Hubble may actually mean that the Oracle is no longer needed. Obviously still powerful and desired, and I still managed to get it in my games, but it may only be worth 10-20 turns off your victory in the end. All this means I'll probably have to take a look at build orders.

In terms of settling and tree chopping, this made things a lot more flexible due to not needing the extra production to guarantee founding. I'm also considering relaxing my stance on settling cities far apart. Provided you have enough tiles for proper growth, the early game security of tightly settling is nice. The extra gold per turn saved from roads was a nice bonus too.

The changes to Chanceries and Wire Service honestly didn't seem to matter much. For a long time, there was more important things to build than Chanceries, and Wire Service just comes way too late to matter. Much more beneficial was the buff to Aqueducts. +25% Production when a Citizen is born was pretty helpful after I got the growth rolling.

Ancestor Worship still seems good provided you don't get a really weak food start in your capitol. Basically, I waited until 6 pop before churning out settlers, which very rapidly led to 5 faith per turn from religion. I consider that pretty good for a multi yield scaling religion. That being said, it may not be needed if I end up trying to cut the Oracle from the build, in which case Wisdom could be quite nice.
 
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Oracle is awesome, I would consider keeping it just as a security measure, it also means no one else gets it. Even if you get more policies than you need, it would still mean you are getting all policy bonuses early from that point on. I think Oracle into Aesthetics opener is basically the same as Masoleaum of Hali.

I've been able to follow the guide very closely in my games post-Oracle. If you can get yourself in the situation where you have a religion, 4 safe cities, hanging gardens and oracle, you are in an amazing position. At that point the guide seems pretty accurate, and I only make adjustments to prevent other civs win conditions. What could use revision is the early game, especially settling ideas. I really agree that you don't need much space, its better to avoid war now even if it means working a few crappy tiles (or even unemployment) 200 years from now

Have you tried Mastery over cathedrals? It seems like unless each city you own is working more farms than specialists mastery ought to be better. In my most recent game I realized that there's a point where your new citizens from growth just work farms, and getting food just for the sake of more food is pretty pointless. It also crosses my mind that if cathedrals is actually better than cooperation here, one of those two tenants really could use a change (though I suspect it isn't)
 
Oracle is awesome, I would consider keeping it just as a security measure, it also means no one else gets it. Even if you get more policies than you need, it would still mean you are getting all policy bonuses early from that point on. I think Oracle into Aesthetics opener is basically the same as Masoleaum of Hali.
Yeah, it's definitely great for all those reasons. What I may end up doing is having a Playing From Behind section explaining what to do if you're set back significantly somehow, and skipping Oracle could potentially help a lot in that. Later win, but you're less likely to be rolled over before then.

Also, I can't really say I'd recommend taking the Aesthetics opener in most situations. You're basically spending culture to generate more culture, but due to the rising cost of more policies, this can take a long time to pay out. Effectively, unless it directly leads to you not missing out on a strong wonder, which is difficult to know or plan for without save scumming, then you're not going to get much tangible use out of this extra culture.
Have you tried Mastery over cathedrals? It seems like unless each city you own is working more farms than specialists mastery ought to be better. In my most recent game I realized that there's a point where your new citizens from growth just work farms, and getting food just for the sake of more food is pretty pointless. It also crosses my mind that if cathedrals is actually better than cooperation here, one of those two tenants really could use a change (though I suspect it isn't)
I have indeed tried Mastery. It is really, really hard to beat Cathedrals at pretty much any point in the game on non-communitas maps. The immediate gold, faith, happiness from poverty reduction, religious pressure and resistance to missionaries are all very nice, and then it scales about as well into the end game to boot. Remember that Golden Ages add +1 Gold to every tile with at least one gold already, so Cathedrals effectively add +2 gold to every farm. There's a reason it's consistently harped on for being overpowered.

You also have to remember that you gain significant bonus yields from birthing citizens from buildings like Universities and Aqueducts, so there's still value in working farms even if you're maxed out on specialists. Then there's the buildings like Wells or Paper Makers, which add yields based on population. Basically, large populations have many benefits other than simply having lots of specialists.

The issue with Cooperation is that, even for China, it only really starts paying off after scaling from a few eras and getting your growth rolling, which is why I grab it as a second belief. Mastery has a similar issue in that it is only really effective once you have a large number of specialist slots. They scale pretty similarly (assuming you have a lot of growth) but what makes me pick Cooperation over Mastery is the bonus food and faith. Honestly though, they both have their merits in different situations.
 
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Oracle is awesome, I would consider keeping it just as a security measure, it also means no one else gets it.

What could use revision is the early game, especially settling ideas. I really agree that you don't need much space, its better to avoid war now even if it means working a few crappy tiles (or even unemployment) 200 years from now

Have you tried Mastery over cathedrals? It seems like unless each city you own is working more farms than specialists mastery ought to be better. In my most recent game I realized that there's a point where your new citizens from growth just work farms, and getting food just for the sake of more food is pretty pointless.)

I agree with all of the above, and had been thinking about the farm/specialists conundrum myself.

So I hammered out a few games last night, but I was too tired to make a post.

Pyramids can definitely be cut from the build, and Shrines can easily be built second, possibly first. With this, I was usually first or second religion even in games with hand picked faith civs.

In terms of settling and tree chopping, this made things a lot more flexible due to not needing the extra production to guarantee founding. I'm also considering relaxing my stance on settling cities far apart. Provided you have enough tiles for proper growth, the early game security of tightly settling is nice. The extra gold per turn saved from roads was a nice bonus too.

Ancestor Worship still seems good provided you don't get a really weak food start in your capitol. Basically, I waited until 6 pop before churning out settlers, which very rapidly led to 5 faith per turn from religion.

Everything I put in boldface sounds good to me.


Two things I'd like to add.
1. Every time I played Tradition, there were surprisingly very few tiles being worked. Most pop are in specialists slots, most food comes from wells/water mills and growth buildings and just a few of them are working on food tiles. So I think farms aren't so key, fishing resources are neat too, and you are researching Trapping early.
2. Going peaceful doesn't mean having a weak army. You need to deal with threats, but also deal with the barbs that slow your progress, and it's real nice to have an intervention army to protect nearby CS from invasions. The bonus you get from CS alliances worth more the taller you settle. In an empire of just 4 cities, having 2 CS allied is great: buffer, more friendly units, proportionally higher yields. I agree you don't need Statecraft for this, as you are going to focus on your 2-3 closest CS.

Crazy G echoed your first point. Having a strong-enough army is key -- my current game's a great example. With Tradition, this usually means having a military tech lead. I usually favor a naval edge first.
 
I have indeed tried Mastery. It is really, really hard to beat Cathedrals at pretty much any point in the game on non-communitas maps. The immediate gold, faith, happiness from poverty reduction and resistance to missionaries are all very nice, and then it scales about as well into the end game to boot. Remember that Golden Ages add +1 Gold to every tile with at least one gold already, so Cathedrals effectively add +2 gold to every farm. There's a reason it's consistently harped on for being overpowered.

You also have to remember that you gain significant bonus yields from birthing citizens from buildings like Universities and Aqueducts, so there's still value in working farms even if you're maxed out on specialists. Then there's the buildings like Wells or Paper Makers, which add yields based on population. Basically, large populations have many benefits other than simply having lots of specialists.

The issue with Cooperation is that, even for China, it only really starts paying off after scaling from a few eras and getting your growth rolling, which is why I grab it as a second belief. Mastery has a similar issue in that it is only really effective once you have a large number of specialist slots. They scale pretty similarly (assuming you have a lot of growth) but what makes me pick Cooperation over Mastery is the bonus food and faith. Honestly though, they both have their merits in different situations.

I'm speaking from a Communitas pov. But that aside, having large populations doesn't negate the fact that you win with specialists... and at that point, you're not using many farms. In a nutshell, you build up a population large enough to handle your specialists. Given that so much of the game is the later stages, I would lean toward benefits for those eras, as opposed to the earlier ones.
 
I'm speaking from a Communitas pov. But that aside, having large populations doesn't negate the fact that you win with specialists... and at that point, you're not using many farms. In a nutshell, you build up a population large enough to handle your specialists. Given that so much of the game is the later stages, I would lean toward benefits for those eras, as opposed to the earlier ones.
I routinely finish my games with 75+ pop in my capitol. Working every specialist has never prevented me from working a significant amount of tiles as China.

Basically, Mastery and Cathedrals don't directly compete with each other, as Cathedrals don't somehow reduce the amount of specialists you can slot. You have to ask yourself, "What am I gaining by not taking Cathedrals?" and "What am I gaining by not working farms?" You're still going to be working some farms no matter what as you need them to get specialists, so why not let them solve your gold problem at the same time? You don't start the game with every specialist slot available, so you can't just dump all your pop in and call it a day. No, you slot them one at a time as buildings become available. Is there some significant benefit to slotting this specialist immediately rather than waiting a few turns and letting your growth fill it? If you do that enough, you may even find you can't slot every specialist because you neglected growth too much.

This can basically be applied to any tile as China. Why unslot that farm for a stable? Sure, you'll get a bit more production in the short term, but you could just have a new pop working that tile soon anyway. Growth is China's strongest asset, and hobbling it for short term gains is just counterproductive.
 
To be clear, I only would suggest the Aesthetics opener if you fear an enemy culture victory. I tested it and I agree that generally finishing Piety is better.

When choosing between food and production, I typically pick whatever I currently have less of. As china, I have a lot of food, and the larger your population becomes the less valuable food is (because it takes more to grow each stage). Once your population becomes huge, how much does working that farm really get you? Its 1 hammer and 2 gold, but specialist eventually become worth 9 of key yields like culture. As China once you have golden age and empress love, can your growth even be stopped?

It seems to me that production, culture and science are the yields that ultimately win the game (gold is basically production that can be traded). Food (and for this strategy, faith) exist only to help you get those other yields.
Do you put your cities on food focus?
 
When choosing between food and production, I typically pick whatever I currently have less of. As China, I have a lot of food, and the larger your population becomes the less valuable food is (because it takes more to grow each stage). Once your population becomes huge, how much does working that farm really get you? Its 1 hammer and 2 gold, but specialist eventually become worth 9 of key yields like culture. As China once you have golden age and empress love, can your growth even be stopped?
I can understand this position, but I think it's misguided. Every yield becomes less valuable as the game progresses due to inflation. Four hammer tiles can be pretty strong early game, but it becomes pretty minor when buildings start to cost hundreds of production. Science on forests can be really strong initially, but really stops mattering once tech costs balloon into the thousands. So from that, I think food shouldn't be inherently more devalued than say production or gold, and China's percent bonus is just as good throughout the game.

Really, it doesn't make sense to compare farms to specialists. You make farms for specialists, and no other base tile improvement does this better. That's not even a debate. Sure, you could stop working a farm to slot a specialist slightly earlier, but if you're growing as fast as China can then there's not much point. What you should actually be comparing farms to is other tile improvements like mines and pastures.

For those who don't know, every citizen working a tile consumes two food (specialists consume 2-8 depending on era, disregarding policies.). That means if you're working a tile with 2 food and 4 hammers, you're not actually getting any growth from that tile, and it won't support specialists. That means that every tile not a farm or sea resource with building support is supremely bad for supporting specialists.

I need to wrap this up, so sorry if this sounds terse from this point. Just in a rush.

If you want specialists, you need to work farms early. That's a given. Cathedrals amplify something you need to be doing anyway, rather than make a bad tile good. So you hit the point where you've filled every specialist you can and you're still growing like crazy, so you work extra tiles. You could start working a mine, and in the short term that will be better, but as turns go by it always gets to a point where it would have been better to work the farm instead as this would have lead to more citizens, which could work both tiles. The thing about China is that your growth is so insane that you very rapidly make up for any lost production or gold, so when working a production tile, you need to ask yourself how it's contributing to your victory. Sometimes it's justifiable, as you're working on a specific wonder or building that helps you significantly, or you just straight up need GPT or you'll bankrupt. But unless you're near the end game, the long view says that growth will pay out better in the end, and winning a science victory is a marathon, not a sprint.

Couldn't figure out a way to work this into another paragraph, but it's also important to remember that, unlike every other yield in the game, the majority of your base food yields comes from tiles worked. Production, culture, science, faith, gold, all of these eventually get the majority of their base yields from specialists and buildings. Food is the sole exception to this as there is no Food Specialist.



Oh and to answer your question, I will sometimes just set cities to growth, but I typically micromanage them until they grow every 2-3 turns.
 
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