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Tradition guide from beginner to intermediate

Discussion in 'Strategy Section' started by Gokudo01, Apr 10, 2018.

  1. Gokudo01

    Gokudo01 Chieftain

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    I will try to lighten some players who find difficult to take off while picking tradition.
    I will try to explain what were the obstacles I have to overcome in order to be decent.

    The first issue I did have is the mindset. When you use to play progress, all cities have got more or less the same goal : get infrastructure asap and try to be a net neutral/positive to your empire in term of culture/science/gold.
    It's the biggest mistake while picking tradition. Your capital is the heart of the empire, the other cities are satellites.
    The second issue was that i wasn't fully using specialist as when I was playing progress. It's a big mistake.
    Except extremely early, where you can't work merchant, you should work almost all your specialist in your capital ( specially scientist, GW/GA/GM )
    My last issue was trying to build infrastructure too early in my capital. You don't need to build everything because specialist AND their Gpi or GreatWork will give you better yields.
    that means that you can concentrate on growth in the capital.
    Getting more population in your capital should always be your main concern until you slotted every specialist building in the atomic era.

    1 - Tradition is great but when ?

    Some civs has got a natural bias over tradition : austria, arabia, korea.
    Some get some advantages like golden age civs or civs with bonus that doesn't scale with the city number ( germany, ) but can always choose something else.

    I think the biggest factor is how you plan(are able) to expand .
    do you have space, do you want to some early brawling ? if both answers are no then tradition is never a bad choice.

    2 - Strong point and Weakness.


    Tradition's strong points are :
    1 - growth
    2 - extra specialist
    3 - centralised happiness bonus
    4 - strong steady culture output.
    5 - extra golden age length.

    and the weakness are :
    except growth no "per city" bonus.
    extremely weak gold management
    unintuitive happiness management


    3 - The heart of the empire.

    The tradition capital is not only your biggest city, it's the city that will produce so much science and culture that NO additional city will be able to improve the science/culture output of your capital (until your first Great scientist for science )
    You have to remember that. Your satellites are here to expand your economy via extra production and gold.
    rushing science is not needed(they will work the gpi that the capital can't work ). you want them to grow big and to work Food/Production and gold.
    they are here to release the production queue of your capital. After the first round of units, your capital shouldn't build units unless you are in a pinch.
    it's not their jobs to work specialists early on. it's not their job to build an early council or library. They are here to produce units and growth/production/gold infrastructure; leave the science/culture to daddy.

    4 - Build order, expansion and city placement.

    Many people start with shrine -> monument but it can be altered for different reasons : desert start, i usually need a worker faster for the farm on the flooded plain and for the mine/horse for my 3rd or 4th citizen when i will start to build my settler.
    you need a warrior at some point to escort your settlers ( you can do it with pathfinder but it will be harder to kill those barbarian roaming near your cities )
    I usually spam my settler in one go. 2, 3 or 4 new cities will not hammer so much your happiness that you have to stop expanding to improve your luxuries or build infrastructure.

    some overlaps with your capital is acceptable unless you are playing india : your capital will not do lots of field work until modern era. The capital usually works 2 or 3 big food tiles and one or two towns.
    Daddy will not be displeased and it will be easier to defend and you will pay less in road maintenance : Gold will be your main weakness until medieval tree. Every gains, even an inch is good.

    try to put them in good defensive position because the number will not be on your side, you will have to use every topographic advantages in order to convert any assault to your city into a battle of the hornburg.(tradition cities with garrison hit hard )

    Once you finished to settle, you can build some worker and some additional military units in your capital : they should be the last ones to be trained here. After that, the other will come from your satellites.

    One last advice, I beg you, don't lose your time to build road until you get A NET extra gold from it. your empire is small and you should be able to bear the unhappiness until -2 per city. don't waste your worker precious time.


    5 - Religion and beliefs

    There are literally tons of synergies and combo between the different civilizations and religion.

    So I can only give my point of view.
    About pantheon :
    I think tradition can found with any pantheon with faith generation not related to a building(god of sun being an exception ) or city connection
    I founded in 96 turns with festival and in 86 turns with wisdom.
    festival is good for tradition because you get extra gold and you are not forced to work those ****** tiles without food :p
    all this thanks to sovereignty which grants tradition 3 extra faith.

    Once you've got a religion, founder is really up to you : are you next another founder ? will you able to spread ? will you be able to win the spreading war. will you have to kill india ? Do you even want to spread ?

    About follower, mastery can be an obvious choice. BUT I have to say that thrift and cathedral are both honourable to overcome your early weakness. Inspiration did disappoint me. the impact is not as great as thrift with tradition.
    Mandir, asceticism and cooperation are solid choice too.

    6 - About techs :


    Military training : I really think it's a waste to rush it unless you want to make a blitz to a really close neighbour. your empire is small and since the spearman(pikeman) update, the horseman is not the beast he used to be.
    you can easily hold the line with spearmen and archers and train horsemen when the catapult and skirmicher will be on the field.
    Moreover barrack is not a top priority building since the nerf. -10% to crime threshold change almost nothing(until later or armory) and +1 science is not that great.
    at this point, i would build spearman over barrack 100%.
    Which leaves arthemis temple
    Even if i've picked goddess of protection, i prefer to get the free barrack from zeus status and save my breaker for something else.

    I usually go for trapping/Animal husbandry/mining before pottery.

    After that, bronze working for spearmen and after, think about luxury and farm triangle.


    7 - General recommendation

    National wonders should be build asap, they provide extra happiness.
    Capital should always construct specialist buildings asap.
    Satellite shouldn't need to work specialist until guilds. ( unless you are really lagging in science )
    Plant your gpi ( except town ) in your satellites : you will greatly reduces unhappiness with Holy site, academy and increase production with manufactory(you can plant one in your capital over some bonus/luxury ressources)
    Your capital should work big food tiles with some extra production here and there. don't use your capital to work an academy.


    Conclusion :


    So now you are an average tradition player, you need to wait the crazyg's guide in order to go from intermediate to expert :p
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
  2. Blue Ghost

    Blue Ghost Chieftain

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    Great work! I’ve definitely struggled with Tradition more than Progress/Authority, and I’m looking forward to implementing some of your advice in my next game.

    How do you get enough food to work your specialists in the early game? After the recent nerf to specialists, I have a hard time working more than one or two specialists in the capital before classical era, so all the extra specialist slots that Tradition gives are going to waste.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  3. ScooterDWiebels

    ScooterDWiebels Chieftain

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    The only thing to add is that usually on Tradition I need to be active in getting CS alliances, with few cities and not a lot of terrain you may find yourself laking resources, CS alliances are crucial in alieving this problem.
     
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  4. ScooterDWiebels

    ScooterDWiebels Chieftain

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    Also if possible use lighthouses to connect your coastal cities, I always build a lighthouse in all my coastal cities, many times it might be the first building they build.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  5. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Chieftain

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    Yes, this or the contrary: no coastal cities. Coastal cities are weak defensivelly speaking, and require a navy to defend.
    Best are all or nothing as coastal cities. The worst situation being "only the capital coastal and all the other inland".
     
  6. Gokudo01

    Gokudo01 Chieftain

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    one farm triange over the river is the best but just near fresh water is good too. you can have early on +5(6 on flood plain) food tiles. opener give food in the capital and scaler too. a policy gives food too.
     
  7. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    I agree with everything in the OP. Only add that even though Tradition is not very suited for combat, it's very posible to expand through arms, at least in easier mode.
     
  8. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Chieftain

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    A food ITR or 2 can really get the capital humming early game.

    Unlike other percentages, the growth bonus does affect the food from ITR, so that’s a bonus.
     
  9. Blue Ghost

    Blue Ghost Chieftain

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    No coastal cities? I’ve heard people say this, but doesn’t the total inability to build ships (including cargo ships) hinder exploration, trade and tourism?
     
  10. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    Good guide. I do work academies as tradition, just to offer a counter opinion. My win condition as tradition is generally to get both a significant culture and science lead at the same time. Once you achieve that, a formal victory should fall into place. A tech lead is how you do well militarily. Also don't forget faster border growth as an advantage. Tradition empires shouldn't buy tiles very often. Usually only a natural wonder, pantheon boosted resource, or a tile another player or CS might snag.

    Does it hinder? Yes. But it can often be worth the set back. Coastal tiles without resources are almost never worth working for a typical tradition empire. Lighthouses and harbors burn a lot of hammers in hammer starved cities. You cannot maintain a navy and compete on both land and sea, gold and unit supply are big weaknesses; settling on the coast a bunch will expose you.
     
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  11. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Chieftain

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    Well, it depends on the map. On Pangea, you don't lost a lot on exploration and trade. On Continents, you may want at some point to have a naval city for the tourism on trade routes, but it can be a conquered one, or a pioner/colonist on an island.
     
  12. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Maybe it's true in Deity. In Kig-Emperor it is very posible to have a few coastal cities in the same sea protected by a small fleet and some siege units. I usually can only afford one Seaport, but that's enough to build my defensive fleet. And in a continents map, this allows for sending sea trade routes to the civs you want to influence more.
     
  13. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    What I mean is you should go pretty heavy toward the sea, or pretty light towards the sea. If you try to balance, you really spread your production and gold thin by trying to keep up in military and navy (plus if you have no navy, you can skip certain techs for a while)
     
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  14. ScooterDWiebels

    ScooterDWiebels Chieftain

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    Problem with that is that your lone coastal city with no possible land or sea link to capitol will make for an unhappy city and will get worse if the city grows to any size.
     
  15. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    He's referring to a coastal city in the same land mass of your capital.
    EDIT. Once you have an owned coastal city in the same land mass, you can have any other connected coastal city anywhere.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
  16. ScooterDWiebels

    ScooterDWiebels Chieftain

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    I understand that but he said "or a pioneer/colonist on an island." That is not on the same land mass and it is this situation with no other coastal city that will cause the unhappiness.
     
  17. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Yes, actually he said that. But Moi Magnus knows better, so maybe he has not expressed it correctly.
     
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  18. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Chieftain

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    I intended to say:
    +Capturing a coastal city
    OR
    +Capturing a coastal city and settling on an island if it is not enough to reach everybody on the other continents.
    OR
    +Settling a crappy island city in end game with for unique purpose of sending trade roudes. Since unhappiness is never lesser than the population, it can be worth it.

    But to be fair, its been a long time I've not done a tradition game, culture victory, on non pangea map, and at high difficulty level, so I might be obsolete.
     
  19. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Chieftain

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    Another tip, glory of god tends to be really good with tradition. You get a lot of bonuses from every GP born.
     
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  20. hr_oskar

    hr_oskar Deity

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    Tradition is my favorite tree, even though it doesn't have the raw power of the other trees. When I play progress, everything seems to fall into place with minimal thought or effort on my behalf. Tradition is more of a puzzle and more satisfying when I make it work out.

    I prefer to plant my satellites in a tight ring around the capital, 4-5 tiles away each. Ideally 4 satellites, 5 cities total. I like to be able to work all the good tiles around the capital with my other cities. This setup helps me get started faster early on and to avoid annoying neighbours unnecessarily. With this setup, it actually makes sense to plant gpi's around the capital, since they can then be swapped between the capital and the other cities as needed. If I'm building a wonder in the capital, I'd obviously want to work manufactories, and during a golden age I might want to work academies there; or just if I have more citizens than specialist slots.

    But overall I agree. I've actually tended to work all gpi's with my capital (just seemed to make sense intuitively) but I'm going to revise that in future games.

    I agree in that it's very hard for a tall tradition civ to have a competitive army and navy at the same time. You have to pick one.

    However, I still think you can have a few coastal cities even if you're not going to build a real navy -- what matters is their defensibility. You want as few coastal tiles adjacent to the city as possible, which limits the number of melee ships that can attack per turn; fewer tiles adjacent to those (in the second ring) is also better, since that limits the number of ranged ships that can attack. For a defensible coastal city you just need one melee ship inside it to help attack adjacent ships, your ranged land units and the city can handle the rest.

    What puts me off that one is that you need to spread it to make the most of it, which may not fit my strategy at all. I think Knowledge through Devotion is very appealing as well, even without going for a CV. Also Jesuit Education, which helps compensate for poor production. Austria will obviously want Global Commandements most of the time.

    ---

    Another big issue that hasn't been discussed: Justice or Sovereignty first?

    Justice first is obviously amazing short term in order to pump out the first settlers asap. I always work the engineer while building settlers and tend to pump them all out in one go, with at most a unit or worker in between.

    However, Sovereignty first may be required for getting a religion at high difficulty and working the artist while building settlers can help get to Justice fast. So you should have both policies sooner this way. Faster border growth right away is a nice extra, though of secondary concern.

    I've tended to go Justice first but really need to try out Sovereignty first more.
     

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