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Tradition opening?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by OverWind, Oct 24, 2011.

  1. OverWind

    OverWind Chieftain

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    Hi everyone. I guess this probably have been discussed before, but when I search for "tradition opening" or things like that, I get a billion results that do not answer my question. So sorry if this doesn't bring anything new to the table.

    My question is: I know a lot (most?) good players go for liberty -> free settler at the start. I normally go for Tradition -> Liberty -> free settler, for the +3 culture tradition gives, because it just seems to me that I get policies more quickly overall. Is that dumb? And why?
     
  2. donlep

    donlep Chieftain

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    i mostly do what you do myself
    but its not very wise
    SP's get more and more expensive, so the 3 culture each turn, ends up counting for hardly anything at all
    with a tradition start you will finish the liberty tree later, wich means getting the very important free great person later
     
  3. André Alfenaar

    André Alfenaar Warlord

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    I agree, but Tradition has some good SP's. The opening SP of Tradition is good for landgrabbing and works well together with Liberty. Oligarchy is good for defending after the early expansion.

    So I usually start with the opening SP of Tradition and then swith to Liberty (the path to Republic). Sometimes I take the Honor opening as well before going to Liberty, because it has a high return of investment in the early game (like the opening of Tradition).

    My favorite combination of SP's is: Tradition/Liberty/Honor/Piety/Freedom.
     
  4. snarzberry

    snarzberry Emperor

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    It's okay if you're planning on actually using the tradition tree, say for legalism opera houses or something. But if you're planning on just opening Tradition for the 3 culture and reduced tile expansion cost and then going Liberty - Rationalism, or something like that, then you're better off just diving straight into Liberty.
     
  5. Poomermon

    Poomermon Warlord

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    Yeah I would only take tradition for the legalism trick for civs with unique culture buildings (Siam, Songhai, Egypt). Start with tradition opener and then go with liberty tree until you can pull the legalism trick. Maybe later you can also take aristocracy when your cities are big enough to benefit from it.
     
  6. Becomedeath

    Becomedeath The Destroyer

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    To the War Academy!

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=426274

    To be honest, I've found recently that opening with one point in Honor and then hunting down barbarians gets me higher speed early policies with Liberty's GP being earned circa turn 100 on standard games quite regularly. (Without the Oracle.)

    There is no real right way or wrong way, so long as you're having fun, doing what you enjoy and are capable of winning doing it. Anything else is just refinement. :)
     
  7. woodshadows

    woodshadows King

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    i was always a fan of taking tradition first for the big culture and border return. i would do tradition, then liberty, then back to tradition for the free monuments, then back to liberty for the free settler. seemed to get me a nice amount of early culture generation/saved me from building monuments/got me a free settler very early.

    these days assuming lots of barbs nearby ill pull an honour opener, otherwise tradition, then ill bounce back and forth between the trees depending on my circumstances. if i fear a rush/short on gold i might take the garrisoned unit 100% increase free support policy, if i'm considering an invasion i might take honours 10% increased melee production and free great general policy. really all depends on circumstances.
     
  8. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    I find Tradition opener -> Liberty opener to be more flexible than straight Liberty. It allows you to go tall or wide, mix of the two, peaceful or warring, since it doesn't delay Liberty finisher horribly. So if I don't have a particular game plan (really bad idea on immortal+, but sometimes map dictates other things than you planned initially) and I'm not rushing for GS to bulb Astronomy/Chivalry/Machinery/Steel or GE for Notre Dame, which, I admit, doesn't happen often, I'll go this path.
    However, it's very situational. In non-domination games I have a bad habit of screwing the timing, when science is the limiting factor, not culture and I cannot take Rationalism after Liberty. So I'd better take Tradition opener first than feel sorry later for not spending 'spare' policy on it and take Patronage/Commerce openers, which don't prove to be a worthwhile. Tradition opener so deep in the game also doesn't add much.
    For the same reason and against the logic I might go Liberty first with the most obvious candidates Siam/Egypt and take Tradition opener later. This makes timing easier. Not optimal, I know.

    BTW, do people ever execute Legalism trick with Songhai? I never did. Askia is a perfect warmonger, seems like a total waste to me.
     
  9. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    In addition to the article Becomedeath linked to, see here. :)
     
  10. CultureManiac

    CultureManiac Prince

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    I generally prefer Tradition -> Liberty. The extra culture from the Tradition opener helps open up early policies quicker. It will slightly delay getting a second settler, which you will have to take as your third policy, instead of second policy, but then you get ahead after you pop other SP more quickly.
     
  11. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    Here was proved otherwise. You finish Liberty faster if you go straight Liberty and don't waste any SP's on other trees.
     
  12. CultureManiac

    CultureManiac Prince

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    Yes, I agree, if you want to take all of Liberty first, then starting with Liberty is best. But if you want both a free settler plus a boost to wonder production ASAP, then Tradition -> Liberty is best.
     
  13. Redcoat Captain

    Redcoat Captain Leader of the Redcoats!

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    I dont really think it matters a huge amount. Chances are you will have enough time and space to get that free settler set up somewhere decent near your starting city. I tend to do liberty for the free settler, free worker and improved production, then do all of tradition before going back to finish the remainder of the liberty tree.

    Depends what difficulty you play on i suppose (and your victory conditions)
     
  14. malitano

    malitano Warlord

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    I go for the full tradition opener in almost every game with aim of having a super tall capital with sufficient production to get my early wonder objectives.

    I don't really dig liberty in my play style. I would rather get honor
     
  15. Optional

    Optional Deity

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    I nearly always mix Tradition and Honour. Tradition opener and then Honour, but picking up the faster wonders and better (ranged) city defense from Tradition.

    Sometimes I try Liberty, but I go belly-up with that all the time. Time for the free settler... I'm besieged with hostile soldiers.
    I think Liberty gives you the strongest opening if you're left in piece. But there is a Catch 22 going on here; the quick Liberty driven expansion makes other civs angry.
    Once I'm facing that anger, I wish I had gone other policies.
     
  16. woodshadows

    woodshadows King

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    That's exactly my experience as well with Liberty. There is also the difficulty with that rapid expansion in dealing with costs and happiness. Trying to deal with a sharp increase in costs and happiness while simultaneously building a defense to inhibit being rushed is tricky. Tradition and honour are very solid and have good synergy together, esp the free garrison 100% combat strength with the honour tree happiness and culture boost to garrisoned units.
     
  17. Soryn Arkayn

    Soryn Arkayn Prince

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    I usually begin with Tradition first for the +3 Culture and border expansion, which drastically speeds up subsequent Social Policies.

    Second, I usually open up Liberty for the +1 Culture and so I can access Collective Rule and Citizenship.

    However, if I encounter a lot of Barbarians (if I'm playing with Raging Barbarians) I'll usually chose Honor second, and train additional Warriors, so I can earn extra Culture and gold from killing barbarians and capturing their camps.

    I don't choose Collective Rule to obtain the free Settler until I have sufficient Happiness to accommodate a second city. I'll usually choose Citizenship for the free Worker to acquire luxuries prior to choosing Collective Rule.

    I always complete Liberty, but not necessarily all at once. If my civ will benefit from the other branches, I'll choose them.

    I won't bother completing Tradition until much later, because boosting my cities' growth rate isn't a priority, unless I'm playing as India.

    Unlike most players, I'm in no rush to expand. I'm more interested in keeping my civ Happy, constructing buildings and wonders, and training defensive units than expanding rapidly. If I see I'm being hemmed in by other civs I'll either try to kill their settlers or capture their cities. There's plenty of time for expansion in the mid-game.
     
  18. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

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    This is how I usually play it too. I find that the extra time is well spent scouting the map for the best city location(s). The +3 :c5culture: works well when you have one city early on so Policies come relatively fast.

    Depending on my game plan, I have a couple of options. When going wide (for a Domination win), I often build a Settler in parallel to getting a free Settler (Legalism/Collective Rule) so that I found cities 2 and 3 close together. When going tall (for a Culture win) I will often keep my capital with +4 :c5culture: (3 :c5culture: from Tradition and 1 :c5culture: from Liberty) and take Aristocracy to knock out Stonehenge for another 6 :c5culture: to really get the Policies rolling. Stonehenge is also really nice to have for the early GE points to rush later wonders.
     
  19. vexing

    vexing knows

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    as the war academy article points out, doing tradition purely for the +3 culture to "speed up" other policies fails miserably; you never make up for exponentially increasing costs with a flat +3 culture. you'll finish all of liberty significantly faster by going through it directly. there are many threads that cover this and go over the math.

    the border pop culture reduction tradition provides is extremely significant for later tile costs; in the time it takes to get 10 tiles without tradition you'd get 16 with.
     
  20. Derpy Hooves

    Derpy Hooves Grand Inquisitor

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    I take tradition pretty much every time I go tall or tall into wide by conquest.
    Probably my most chosen policy branch out of all my games.
     

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