[BNW] Tradition: Three Cities Approaches (BNW)

[Tabarnak]

Tabarnak submitted a new resource:

Tradition: Three Cities Approaches - Tradition: Three Cities Approaches

Tradition
Food focused three cities approaches​

Important note: A new patch has slightly nerfed the Tradition tree. For players who don't care to reload to get a fast culture ruin can follow the actual paths in the same orders. Players who want to stick around(regardless to ruins) have to start with a monument first. For these players you will likely have to wait for 3 before starting a...

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[Tabarnak]

A video with explanations will be added in some days

 

[neilkaz]

Thx Tab,

Do you have any advice for expanding this to 4 cities for SP play vs AI's? I hate wasting that 4th early free monument and duct. However, sometimes playing Immortal (likely more than sometimes at Deity) there's no decent 4th city site left.

Thx .. neilkaz ..

 

[Tabarnak]

Thx Tab,

Do you have any advice for expanding this to 4 cities for SP play vs AI's? I hate wasting that 4th early free monument and duct. However, sometimes playing Immortal (likely more than sometimes at Deity) there's no decent 4th city site left.

Thx .. neilkaz ..

You need a strong capital and some spare gold to make it worth. Remember that a trade route last 30 turns. If your first route is released around the turn 40-50 you will be able to send that route again to the 4th city when you will have finished the NC

In other words : It depends. From my experience it's not necessary to put a 4th city before NC. The food caravans will take care of the ''delay''. Also, you need quite a lot of happiness to stay happy with 4 cities right away. You will often need an allied cs or 2 to easily roll into happiness, which often happen only around the NC completion.

 

[Erneiz Hyde]

I'm not sure about 2 settlers after your first 2 scouts. At the very least, I would squeeze my worker in between the 2 settlers. Otherwise you're relying on worker stealing. And if you're worker stealing, might as well go another mile and worker farm a cs and forget about building workers altogether.

Edit: oh wait reading comprehension fail. I thought you're queueing 2 settlers, but you're saying build a settler after 2 pop. my bad

 

[joncnunn]

Scanning thru:

I'm unable to tell target difficulty level this guide is written at; but it doesn't appear to focus enough on Science for Immortal+.

On that "I want a religion" : I think what to look for is any pantheon producing 4+ additional faith from capital and the planned next city.
(Any natural wonder nearby meets it; 2 of any combo of Gems/Pearls ; 2 of any combo of Marble/Stone ; and there is a massive number of pantheons that produce 1 faith per tile)
For the terrain ones [desert faith / dance of the aurora], downsize that to just tiles you'd want to work early on. [e.g. skip flat desert along with flat tundra that doesn't have fresh water]
In addition, pantheons that don't require an improvement to work are somewhat better.

On that Just want a pantheon: Anyone choosing this option also needs to know that they won't be able to keep their pantheon for long; the AI will replace it as soon as it gets spare missionaries, so it may be better to pick something in which you'd still feel the affects of after it's been removed (e.g. a food one might be better than happiness if your just going to lose it anyway as the city would keep the extra people it grew to)

Resources: I've never been able to get the AI to spend more than 1 GPT per resource item. Even if I have a DOF he'll only give 45 gold which is considerably less than 2GPT = 60 gold.
2 GPT is how much it would cost the human to buy each resource from the AI [without DOF] ; but as above they'd never give the human that much.

Another thing will also throw jokers into this even with the stated total of only 3 cities self built [including capital]:

Playing with Raging Barbs on ; or even standard barbs but finding 2 camps on opposite sides of your empire : This will move up priority of Archery (for Archers)

And an additional comment: Use that starting warrior (and that scout) to get the lay of the land to decide weather you are going after this (3 self founded city); the more traditional 4 city approach; or the liberty one. The very first step of explore to see what's most appropriate to do is the same for all guides.

 

[joncnunn]

Thx Tab,

Do you have any advice for expanding this to 4 cities for SP play vs AI's? I hate wasting that 4th early free monument and duct. However, sometimes playing Immortal (likely more than sometimes at Deity) there's no decent 4th city site left.

Thx .. neilkaz ..

Tall tradition 4 city guide has been around a longer. But it takes the form of somewhat higher priority getting the unique luxuries up, library & NC built.

This guide though is better than that older one when you know you are only going to self found a total of 3 cities due to there being no good 4th city spot; which you should know by turn 10.

But if the reason there's no good spot is the AI has built one in the exact same tile you would have; it's a good thing: Whenever they DOW you, just capture that city.

It's when there's no good spot for one because of where city states were placed that's annoying.

 

[Tabarnak]

Scanning thru:

I'm unable to tell target difficulty level this guide is written at; but it doesn't appear to focus enough on Science for Immortal+

It's for all difficulties. Exception is Deity, maybe a science caravan or 2 for science can be better. At that point, the player will know what to do since that he already play deity

On that "I want a religion" : I think what to look for is any pantheon producing 4+ additional faith from capital and the planned next city.
(Any natural wonder nearby meets it; 2 of any combo of Gems/Pearls ; 2 of any combo of Marble/Stone ; and there is a massive number of pantheons that produce 1 faith per tile)
For the terrain ones [desert faith / dance of the aurora], downsize that to just tiles you'd want to work early on. [e.g. skip flat desert along with flat tundra that doesn't have fresh water]
In addition, pantheons that don't require an improvement to work are somewhat better.

That's right, but i didn't want to do a too large melting pot of every details. Every map is unique and the player should adjust to every situations. Some other articles are or will talk about these things with much more details.

Resources: I've never been able to get the AI to spend more than 1 GPT per resource item. Even if I have a DOF he'll only give 45 gold which is considerably less than 2GPT = 60 gold.
2 GPT is how much it would cost the human to buy each resource from the AI [without DOF] ; but as above they'd never give the human that much.

This is what makes early horses so important. You can get a bit better than a luxury(8 gpt) with a single 4 horses tile early on. Results may vary but it's still the best way to make money early on, and it adds hammers.

Edit : I think that i found the problem. You need to sell 1 horse at a time. If you put more than 1 horse into the deal you will never have 2 gpt for each. You need to repeat the processus each time(i.e. propose a horse to sell for 2 gpt, make the deal, rince and repeat)

I edited this particularity.

This guide though is better than that older one when you know you are only going to self found a total of 3 cities due to there being no good 4th city spot; which you should know by turn 10.

The guide insists near the end of building at least a 4th city or more after the NC. If you cannot build more cities then maybe a Xbow rush is your next step

 

[joncnunn]

Edit : I think that i found the problem. You need to sell 1 horse at a time. If you put more than 1 horse into the deal you will never have 2 gpt for each. You need to repeat the processus each time(i.e. propose a horse to sell for 2 gpt, make the deal, rince and repeat)

I edited this particularity.

The guide insists near the end of building at least a 4th city or more after the NC. If you cannot build more cities then maybe a Xbow rush is your next step

I had interpreted the title as having three self built cities forever mostly due to the existing "four city" guide is indeed a self build ones and had glossed over the one reference to building another one later.

But that one reference may mean this is more of a "three city NC" guide; that old "four city" guide was two city NC with 2 more cities quickly after NC.

Here's what I do if there's no fourth city available due to not a good enough location at all / marginal city state locations have killed it (NOT playing Austria / Venice) :
Take advantage of not having to spend the hammers for the fourth city and only needing 3 copies of base buildings to get National Wonders built quicker.
I'm also somewhat more likely to try to build Leaning Tower when that is the case.

Have my ships explore (as normal) : With the extra task of looking for a great city spot. If I find one, then I'll send a settler / range unit pair there to claim it; worker if needed. And am likely to send a food cargo ship to it as soon as it's built.
Nope; AI won't always buy 1 horse for 2 GPT: See attached screenshot.

Edit: This is a bad test case: The turn after I hooked up the horses (unfortunately only available on my second city) my ongoing luxury deal expired and they were no longer willing to trade luxaries 1 : 1. (Mongols developed a case of land envy)

Additional edit: Persian AI who I next met was indeed willing to give 2 GPT for a single Horse.
However, at that point he valued additional horses at nothing. (Probably because he already had 2 extra horses) Note that this sort of thing is the draw back to one at a time resource deals; if the AI is one below desired quantity of resources you can often still sell up to 5 of them at normal price, but the moment they hit the desired quantity, they won't give anything for more.

 

[Tabarnak]

Nope; AI won't always buy 1 horse for 2 GPT: See attached screenshot.

Additional edit: Persian AI who I next met was indeed willing to give 2 GPT for a single Horse.
However, at that point he valued additional horses at nothing. (Probably because he already had 2 extra horses) Note that this sort of thing is the draw back to one at a time resource deals; if the AI is one below desired quantity of resources you can often still sell up to 5 of them at normal price, but the moment they hit the desired quantity, they won't give anything for more.

You will get 2 gpt for those who aren't mad at you and when they really need it. But it does often happen for the first 100 turns.

I tried my strategy again yesterday and i have been able to sell all 6 horses for 12 gpt scattered through 3 civs(pangea), running over 30 gpt total as soon as the turn 40.

 

[danaphanous]

thanks tabernak! I indeed sell my early horses and usually a portion of my iron as I don't use all of it. I sold in bulk though: deals like 4 horses for 5 gpt. Looks like I was missing out on some capital selling it in bulk. Will try this in the future!

 

[reddishrecue]

This here is a good thread with good information since a 3 city tradition start is useful. I have used this strategy before, as well as before this thread with the use of early internal trade routes and have come up with some successful starts. A few thoughts: Deity ais usually start pantheons very early and have many troops early which allows them to attack and conquer your capital with a few chariot archers and warriors. Selling horse and iron to ais does work sometimes. You can even declare war on ais and scare the ai a bit so that the ai will pay for peace. That could be another way to make some quick cash.

 

[Tabarnak]

Video added in the OP

No commentaries I couldn't make the mic work properly. Maybe another time!

See video description for details.

 

[nakori]

There's some valuable things to learn from this article post. Been a long time since I considered anything but Pottery as first tech, but this strategy seems to work well.

I would like to share my input on this start vs. my own with Maya. Although I've mostly lurked here and not posted anything, I'm around 1000 hours played on steam + more offline.

Played with Maya so early shrine gives some science bias, but Scientist was not to be picked at first Long Count. I tested with Great Admiral as I was partly isolated on a small continents map.
I often go Engineer for Borobudur or Hagia.

Immortal marathon Maya. Same map for both with 3 deers available at once, no ruins. One Citystate worker-steal around turn 80-100. Tradition. Bought worker in both settings after Pyramid/Granary.

My 3 cities (Before NC) Granary start:

BO city #1: Scout - Settler - Granary - Worker - Settler
BO city #2: Granary->Library
BO city #3: Granary->Library

Turn 59: Granary
Turn 91: Rushbuy Pyramid
Turn 95: City #2
Turn 150: City #3
Turn 243: Theology (Next Long Count at Turn 276)
Turn 286: NC done. +68 science. City size: 14 - 8 - 6 (Three cities)

------------------------------------

My 2 cities (Before NC) Shrine start that I'm most familiar with:

BO city #1: Scout - Pyramid - Worker - Settler - Granary
BO city #2: Library - Settler

Turn 53: Pyramid
Turn 108: City #2
Turn 120: Rushbuy Granary in city #2
Turn 202: NC done.
Turn 203: Settle for city #3 as soon as NC is completed
Turn 231: Theology (Next Long Count at Turn 236,276)
Turn 276: Scientist from Long Count #2 (+12 science)
Turn 286: +82 science. City size: 13 - 7 - 6 - 4. (Four cities)


Even though the science was somewhat even without my second long count choice, I feel I had developed more solid waiting to settle City #3 the turn NC was done.
Early NC -> Earlier Theology for Maya. Beelining to Theology seems more important than build order here for my type of game*. And early NC helps you accomplish this.
Also nice to know at what turns you can get the Long Counts. I usually end up around turn 236, 276 or 315 @ marathon. On epic it's 131,150, 177 or 203.

(*I'm not starting a discussion about advantages/disadvantages early Long count, but I prefer early as my multiplayer games with friends seldom reaches modern era and is all about domination in the end.)

 

[Tabarnak]

Mayans can reach Philo so fast that a 2 cities start is perfectly legit since that you need to build 2x shrines.

Is marathon = 3x Standard?

If so, an average/strong capital start with some traders could net you 70x3=210 turns or under NC start with 3 cities. Maybe try to get NC around 210 but with 3 cities? I'm sure that it is possible.

In my video with ugly start i got NC at 81 or 82 making around 242 turns NC with 10-9-5 at marathon.

 

[Merenza]

What are your thoughts on working in HG to this build? I just started playing immortal and have been experimenting with a quick HG to buff early science output from capital, this usually results in delaying a settler/caravans, still trying to optimize build order, is the HG worth delaying founding/growth of 2nd/3rd city?

 

[Tabarnak]

What are your thoughts on working in HG to this build? I just started playing immortal and have been experimenting with a quick HG to buff early science output from capital, this usually results in delaying a settler/caravans, still trying to optimize build order, is the HG worth delaying founding/growth of 2nd/3rd city?

I'm not a big fan of HG especially since BNW with food transports. A single cargo can worth a HG by itself(excepted the free garden and gpp) in term of food. I would say that you should aim for HG only if you plan to get it before NC(and Philo). Not sure if you can add a library or 2 before moving for maths.

The build time is tight for a wonder during the whole phase. Mayube you can start with 2 cities first and build an early library in your capital instead of a 2nd settler. It's certainly doable(for some levels) but you have to cut some other things somewhere.

 

[Halcyan2]

I'm not a big fan of HG especially since BNW with food transports. A single cargo can worth a HG by itself(excepted the free garden and gpp) in term of food. I would say that you should aim for HG only if you plan to get it before NC(and Philo). Not sure if you can add a library or 2 before moving for maths.

Well, another factor regarding HG is whether you plan to generate Great People and if you have access to fresh water. For non-Domination victories, if my capital is not on a river/lake, the free Garden from the HG often becomes much more valuable than the food.

 

[Iberian]

Been a while since I tried for HG but isn't it almost as hard as getting the GL?

Would be interesting to check your empire out at say T200 in scenario 1 with HG and scenario 2 without. You miss out on some GP's and food but you get a faster start.

I watched the video prior to reading the comments and was going to mention the science thing too. You went to research was at 10 around turn 40 but by turn 70 you were up to 36, and on some not great land. The only thing this map gave you that is somewhat rare is a lot of city state buffers.

 

[EditorRex]

Any thoughts on applying this to a civ that benefits from early warfare, specifically Assyria with the tech captures and Siege Engines? I've been trying a similar start strategy but not pushing early settlers quite as much as you suggest. Puppeting captured cities mostly, at least in the beginning. Seems like this type of Civ with a 3-city (or 4-city) Tradition start may benefit from Epic or Marathon pace and a big landmass, big-dimension map with lots of civs. The game nerfs these starts with extra hammer, food, tech, gold, faith and culture requirements, but it doesn't nerf the speed your armies move, which means you may be able to conquer more before the siege engines stop being useful. Probably similar strategies work for a few of the other Ancient UU civs if I'm more or less right about this.
(I'm just playing BNW on Prince for now while I get used to it; sure my thinking may be off for higher levels.)