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Tradition vs Liberty opening

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Grendeldef, Aug 16, 2012.

  1. Grendeldef

    Grendeldef Trancerelic

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2012
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    1,231
    Location:
    Finland
    As most of us I've been quite happy about the viability of tradition in G&K and I've used it far more often than liberty. Lately, though, I've been wondering if there's any logic behind the decision of chosing between those or do I just follow a plan laid out before rolling a map.
    The only factor I've noticed I've used as a basis of decision making is the proximity of neighbours. The more space I have more likely I'll start with liberty but tradition seems to be the standard opening regardless of VC. Unless there's a reasonable space for 5+ cities I'll tend to start with tradition.

    So how is it with others ? Tradition over liberty or vice versa but more interestingly why ? Just a gut feeling or some logic behind it ? Honor doesn't seem appropriate for anything but a very specific start.

    G
     
  2. Aoxomoxoa

    Aoxomoxoa Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Messages:
    492
    As liberty devotee for long time, I think now (certainly at immortal and deity) that Tradition provides a much stronger foundation for the long game. It seems like when I get to turns 75-100 that I am in as strong a position with regards to cities and expanding as I would be with liberty, but my capitol is bigger, I have more defense and I find myself preferring this position. If I need to get a city out quickly I can usually nickel and dime my way to the 500 gold and buy that first one if it's a rush to get to a sweet spot. I miss that golden age and the GP, but I have turned to Tradition as the main starter.
     
  3. Syntax Error

    Syntax Error Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2010
    Messages:
    544
    Don't underestimate the +1 production given by one of Liberty's policies (representation, I think?) It allows newer cities to get infrastructure much faster, even if you;re not going for wide. Also, using Liberty in the mean time will allow you to abuse Legalism. And that's awesome. Imagine four cities getting Wats simultaneously as Siam. So many beakers saved!

    Are free buildings (like Carthage Harbors or Tradition Finisher Aqueducts or Hanging Gardens Garden) also maintenance-free? Cause if that's the case, then that's a lot of GPT in one fell swoop!
     
  4. kamikazees

    kamikazees Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2012
    Messages:
    266
    Yes, the culture buildings and aqueducts are truly free. You can even get the aqueducts before you have researched engineering, which is silly IMO.

    I mostly open with tradition now and try to found 4 cities. I will go liberty if I want to found lots of cities, or am playing a civ with bonuses for founding lots of cities (Maya pyramids, or Carthage/Arabia trade routes, for example).
     
  5. Fragamemnon

    Fragamemnon Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2007
    Messages:
    105
    I feel like I really need good syngergy with a UB/UA to get behind Liberty on Deity.

    Just having the land isn't enough. With a lot of land I could just take the best land and go four city opener w/ Tradition, expand once after NC into five cities, and still be way ahead of where Liberty would have me unless the powerful UA/UB kicked in.

    My biggest complaint w/ Liberty is the extra turns it takes to get the science up to four-city tradition's level after they get the NC built on time. The midgame tech rate is just atrocious w/o massive excessive happiness and worker turns to ensure that your empire can go "wide-tall" fast.
     
  6. JamesCivFan

    JamesCivFan Chieftain

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    Greece
    This.
     
  7. Grendeldef

    Grendeldef Trancerelic

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2012
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    Location:
    Finland
    After this very small sample it seems that like myself, peeps start with tradition unless something unspecific but very rare happens or it's decided before rolling the map. While the change in liberty tree wasn't too big on it's own the imporovement of tradition makes it generally superior and versatile enough for most starts.

    G
     
  8. GlobularFoody

    GlobularFoody Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2010
    Messages:
    237
    I've started using Tradition since G&K, it's a lot better than it was. I rarely, if ever, used it instead of Liberty in vanilla. The free culture building and aqueducts are too good to pass up, even more so for your capital as already having a monument doesn't count toward it. I don't really see any use for the Liberty tree anymore, workers are easily captured from CS so the free one isn't that great, and they set the free settler back a SP.
     

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