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Tradition vs. Progress

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Nightmare Dusk, Nov 3, 2020.

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  1. Nightmare Dusk

    Nightmare Dusk Chieftain

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    My roommate and I are relatively new to vox populi (about 100 hours for both of us) and we've been loving this mod. However, we both are having trouble figuring out when to take tradition tree. We play on standard size map, standard speed, king difficulty, chill barbarians, and 6 bots (in addition to us 2). Even with civs that have a hard leaning to tradition starts like brazil, i feel like it's to damaging to my early game to take it over progress. Most of our game we start out grabbing the progress opener, then grabbing tradition opener, before going back to progress to finish it. Or, we never dip into tradition at all if we have a good amount of food at start. By turn 100, both of us have between 5-7 cities, and if we are playing a wide civ, like china, we'll keep going from there, but otherwise stop with the more tall civs. Anytime we try tradition, are secondary cities struggle to get off the ground and grind our empire to the sputtering pace of stop and go traffic, mostly because of unhappiness. I also feel like tradition gives way to many specialist slots for your capital to reasonably use early game, and possibly even going into mid game. Are we settling to fast for a tradition start? Are we settling to many cities? Is tradition supposed to wait till really late to shine? I want to play a more traditional civ, but i am having trouble convincing myself that tradition is better then progress, contrary to what most people believe on here. Thanks for any help you guys can give!
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2020
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  2. General_Drax

    General_Drax Warlord

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    King and chill barbarians: you have time, lot of it: do not rush expansion. Every city makes your tech and policy cost more. Even with deep Progress is way too fast with 7 cities on turn 100. Unhappiness will bog you down and you need city connections as well.

    Given this condition you can try a Korea very tall game with Tradition. Grab the best spots and aim for 4/5 cities max to turn 100 than stabilize and develop. Of course if you are pinced between Askia and Montezuma maybe is not advised going Tradition but there are many variables to tak account for.

    Not the best version for this approach though. Turn off bribed wars (DiploAIOptions) or you'll be crippled by DOW out of nowhere that destroy trade routes.
     
  3. Nightmare Dusk

    Nightmare Dusk Chieftain

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    7 cities we general only go with somebody like carthage, polynesia, or someone else who has abilities that help prevent unhappiness. Do people keep using settlers into the medieval era, cause that seems like such a long time to settle a city, enough that it will be behind building wise for most of the game. With the more general civs like america we normally stop at 6, and even at 5 for a few like spain. How many cities we throw out there it dependent on our happiness, if we got above 60% and the new pops in all cities won't knock that below 50, i will generally settle another city, building from one of the high pop non capitals generally cause they are in more danger of unhappiness. But building even 4 cities in 100 turns going tradition struggles with happiness. and yeah it cost more policy and science per city, but 5%? When your making 20 culture a turn, another cities with just a momument brings it up to 22 culture a turn, an increase of 10%, so a net gain right? or am i missing something

    Edit: Yeah on higher difficulties spreading out that quickly could cause serious happiness because of how high bot yields are, but I'm not having happiness issues then. Is that a sign we should kick up the difficulty?
     
  4. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    One thing to love about tradition is that you can build lots of wonders! I personally like Stonehenge, the Hanging Gardens, and The Oracle. Pantheons like Goddess of Beauty and Tutelary Gods can work well with this. Something else Tradition's is good at is religion, thanks to the court chapel policy! You should be able to found early and pick beliefs that suit your priorities. I particularly like the founders that give you bonuses in your capital!

    The fewer cities you have, the less you have to invest in building infrastructure overall. Try going with fore core cities, in the best locations you can find and focus on making each of them awesome! One thing that might not be obvious with tradition is that you need to work a bit harder to get all your tiles improved. Make sure you don't forget to build workers to keep everything in ideal shape! Something else to be wary of is that with less territory you will have fewer strategic resources overall. Artistry is the obvious Tradition tree for great people and tourism. But Statecraft grants yields in the capital, makes getting CS alliances easier and gives you strategics! Very useful IMO.

    Tradition is also good for diplomacy, although this may be less useful when playing with other humans. Basically when you don't need to expand as much, you're not constantly fighting for territory - and this can help a lot with the AI.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2020
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  5. Nightmare Dusk

    Nightmare Dusk Chieftain

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    Thanks for the reasons and reply. However, i feel like that's more a discussion of tall vs. Wide. What i having trouble understanding is why 4 or 5 city tradition is better than 4 or 5 city progress. I still grab early wonders easily, (oracle and hanging gardens is grabbed every game, sometimes petra as well if near desert) while im definitely not first in founding religion, I'm not last either so still get the pantheon, and later religion, i want. Progress also allows your workers to quickly upgrade stuff allowing several turns of improved production, gold, or food - and happiness from luxuries - earlier over tradition, who you pointed out work harder for these same improvements. Along with the huge amount of culture progress gives at 4+ cities it allows me to breeze through policies compared to tradition. Sorry if this comes off argumentative, but id like to expand the discussion on this especially for the case of king and emporer difficulties
     
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  6. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    Tradition is better at snowballing the early game than Progress. Tradition has stronger culture, if you're playing tall. Tradition has a stronger early game.

    It sounds like the difficulty you're playing on is low enough that you aren't actually noticing these differences though, as you're grabbing oracle and hanging gardens every game. Hanging Gardens is one of the key wonders for tradition but much less so for Progress. It can be tougher to grab on higher difficulties.

    If you're winning hard in the early game, then Progress' later game strength is relevant and the balance does weigh in favor of Progress.

    Tradition scales into the mid and late game different from Progress. The Golden Age points from great people and the increased length of golden ages are a significant culture boost, if you use them correctly. Tradition can combo into a golden age / great people focused civilization better than Progress, because of the earlier great people and make better use of them because of the focus on the capital.
     
  7. Nightmare Dusk

    Nightmare Dusk Chieftain

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    Thank you so much, this is the answer i was looking for, but didn't know what it was. I knew tradition is supposed to be better culture civ but was personally having trouble figuring out why, since every game we had it tended to lean in favor of progress, and couldn't explain why. Will have to try going 4 city civs some more, and possibly increase difficulty since except for great library the 2 of us have pretty much pick of the wonders
     
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  8. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    I guess the main appeal of Tradition is that is makes your capital stronger, and rewards focusing on your capital first. I play Progress myself but I tend to struggle to build the Oracle in my games, the AI usually gets there well before me.

    Getting religion early also means you don't miss out on key beliefs. The AI is a bit slow on religion right now so that may be less apparent. In general, you have to focus on religion as a Progress player if you wanted to found.

    I'm a bit suprised that you are getting policies so much faster with Progress than with Tradition to be honest, I'm not sure how to give feedback on that without a better understanding of your situation.
     
  9. Nightmare Dusk

    Nightmare Dusk Chieftain

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    Honestly it's something that bothers me as well, the only reasoning i can think of is culture in tradition tree is built by citizens in capital till you get splendor. Progress gives tech for research, while also giving science for civs, along with council gives a good chunk of science which turns into culture. Would have to watch more carefully in future if i am getting the policies sooner and why, or it just feels like it.

    It's not by much, it's somewhere between half a policy to one and a half is my guess. But it's just enough to have policies required when rushing techs for those wonders
     
  10. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    Well, there are certain civs that shine with Tradition (Arabia is hands down the best Tradition civ imo).

    Tradition really benefits from going for Wonders like Hanging Gardens, University of Sankore. Getting a religion is also very advantageous as Tradition, since certain beliefs like Symbolism and the Knowledge through Devotion belief are very impactful.

    Generally, I only found about 4 or 5 cities and focus on my Capital to be the workhorse generating most of the Science and Culture, secondary cities are there to secure monopolies, to provide a buffer for your Capital, and to sustain themselves with the bare minimum in Science and Culture. Your Capital should be happy and shouldn't have any problems growing.

    Basically, you want to settle minimally early game so you can take of advantage of the Tradition opener and work the artist slot, and work towards getting a religion and maybe getting wonders early game.
     
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  11. HixBozo

    HixBozo Warlord

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    I made once a post on this, is kind of related so I will copy paste below how I see it

    Most Tradition players will say first building must be Monument asap. Fair enough. But consider actually rushing a worker. Why ? Because you want to "optimize" the birth of the +2 citizens. You might prefer +2 workers later when the cost of them is higher, rather than preferring them asap (the Monument). Keep that in mind and maybe rushing a worker is preferred before Monument.

    On the other hand you might want to asap the Monument on Progress. Because you want to capture the maximum possible effect of citizen growth. In other words rush production of Monument at the expense of growth and as soon as Progress is unlocked, start rushing growth.

    The Granary plays a critical role in both strategies. Extremely important building, most players I think start researching the technology immediately to unlock the granary asap. You want to time the granary perfectly, if possible, for maximum effect. For example, if you are Tradition you must build the granary in advance of unlocking Tradition for maximum effect of the granary. While with Progress you want to delay the granary for after Progress is unlocked, not before.
     
  12. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    When playing Progress I often build a granary in my capital somewhat early on to help me build more settlers. In other cities I tend to want to build a council first so that I can get the science on pop growth :). Both come after taking the Progress opener of course!
     
  13. Milae

    Milae Warlord

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    Okay well perhaps some tips on tradition will help:
    1. Almost always monument -> shrine or a wonder. Also most games I will save up my money to buy a worker first.
    2. Go sovereignty policy for faith and culture before the production policy.
    3. Then for 5th policy the one on the left is better.
    4. Work culture specialists as much as possible and as early as possible. Usually try to get an engineer early too and then a scientist. Merchants are lowest priority.
    5. Try not to build too many settlers in capital. Better to get them in other cities unless you need to rush them out.
    6. Internal food trade routes to capital.
    7. Put GP improvements on top of resources to maximise the amount you can get from each citizen.
    8. Pay attention to city state quests early on to see if you can get alliances or yields.

    As others have mentioned tradition should usually have faster culture early game than progress but it is a bit more complicated to play well so stick at it I'm sure you will feel the power of it at some point. Also I wouldn't advise mixing policy tress until you are pretty well experienced with playing each of the trees individually.
     
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  14. zeofig

    zeofig Warlord

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    That tradition start sounds like fun, gonna try it
     
  15. maxf

    maxf Chieftain

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    It's surprising to me to hear that Tradition is worse than Progress. In my opinion, the Tradition is too overpowered. It gives a faster start, more culture, science, and everything else at the expense of specialists and great people. My friend, who always preferred to take Tradition, went far ahead by Medieval if I took Progress. So in my own modmod, I was forced to nerf Tradition and reinforce Progress and Authority.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2020
  16. Nightmare Dusk

    Nightmare Dusk Chieftain

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    I've had the opposite, when either my roommate or me take progress, and the other takes tradition, the progress is the one snowballing harder, it's probably from trying to play tradition to much like progress in start of game. I keep messing around with it, and figure out some of the nitty gritty that is tripping up our tradition games
     
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  17. LifeOfBrian

    LifeOfBrian King

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    Tradition should generally be stronger in the early game whereas Progress starts to pick up steam from Medieval era onwards. The question is whether one can use Tradition to gain such a strong start to match or outclass Progress' later bonuses. And of course Tradition is better for a cultural victory and for a science victory (for example for Korea), and always better for civs like Arabia.

    I'm consistently winning or being competitive on Deity with Progress, so I don't think it's underpowered, just different from Tradition and Authority.
     
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  18. maxf

    maxf Chieftain

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    Progress has few bonuses that matter in the late game; Tradition has much more. So it's a mystery to me why progress should have an advantage from the middle of the game.
     
  19. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    Progress has +10% production to buildings, scaling happiness, and the ability to faith buy great writers. An extra 3 great writers during the world fair is a policy or two. This leads to better overall happiness for a larger empire and better infrastructure.
     
  20. zeofig

    zeofig Warlord

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    I think tradition has some effective lategame bonuses, but they are more synergy-based. The additional writer/artist/musician and GP rate are still effective, but its long-term impact is increased if you have great work bonuses or other GP-related bonuses. There's also the 15% yields in the capital, which synergises with great works and anything else that gives huge yields in the capital e.g. Arabia's UA, syncretism, god-king. And there's the growth bonus, which is also dependent on having the right amount of cities and happiness to be impactful lategame. In contrast, Progress's scaling bonuses (10% building production, happiness, great writers) are good in most circumstances, although the happiness bonus is only relevant if you have enough cities that you experience considerable unhappiness. The worker speed bonuses are also nice if you're conquering, building war roads, repairing pillages etc. This is one of the ways I conceptualise the difference between the two trees (and many things in VP) - I usually only go tradition if I can leverage some synergies with its bonuses.
     

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