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Tradition vs. Progress

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Nightmare Dusk, Nov 3, 2020.

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  1. zeofig

    zeofig Warlord

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  2. KaoticKanine

    KaoticKanine Chieftain

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    Yeah, I always thought Progress was the "snowball" policy tree: starts off simply okay but picks up in power as the game goes on. Which is kind of to be expected since "Progress" would imply the civ to be progressive and thus adapts to the future better, whereas Tradition (as zeofig points out) requires some synergy to stay relevant in the late-game.

    Though, looking at it that way, kind of weird that Progress is an Ancient policy tree instead of Renaissance or so lol
     
  3. LifeOfBrian

    LifeOfBrian King

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    Like Zeofig said, Progress should be about a big empire (more military cap, more resources, more citizens,...) that builds boatloads of buildings (helped by 10% to buildings, lots of buildings = lots of culture), is helped with happiness by its policies, gets loads of culture from discovering techs and from being able to time generating/faith buying great writers for maximum culture bombs, and is due to its size and happiness bonuses able to better wage (offensive) wars than Tradition, so it's an alternative to Authority for people that want to or think they might be at some point forced to go to a real war.
     
  4. maxf

    maxf Chieftain

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    I think we need to make an experiment: play the same game twice, once with Tradition, another with Progress. And see on what move the branch will be completed, what the indicators will be by that time. Ideally, play both games till Industrial or Modern Era.
     
  5. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Not exactly what you are looking for, but close:

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...a-side-by-side-actual-game-comparison.659905/

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/tradition-vs-progress-2-a-side-by-side-comparison.662524/

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/tradition-vs-progress-3-a-side-by-side-comparison.662580/
     
    LifeOfBrian and Nightmare Dusk like this.
  6. Zuizgond

    Zuizgond King

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    What bothers me the most is how AI handle progress. It doesn't seem to build a lot of cities.
     
  7. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    A reminder to anyone before suggesting drastic changes to policy trees. The effectiveness of the policy tree depends a fair amount on the speed of AI development and bonuses. On the current patch and more recent patches, Progress has been very strong because its easier to settle a large number of cities, because the AI isn't getting bonuses on the first city and expands more slowly. This hasn't always been the case and could change.

    I'll also note that Progress has been criticized for being too weak - it now looks like its in a good place.
     
  8. Nightmare Dusk

    Nightmare Dusk Chieftain

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    I agree with you, i wasn't recommending a change to the trees at all. Most people on the forums just seem to believe tradition is stronger then progress early game, and for my roommate and i it's been the opposite. So i assumed I'm either playing tradition wrong, or something with how we're playing is skewing it towards progress (bot difficulty, Map choice, etc.), so wanted some input on what's up. I'm also will probably be making a thread about the leaders eventually. part of the problem i believe is the mass majority of the leaders want to go tradition or authority, and going progress with them is considered weaker, causing the branch to look weaker, when it's not, and the civs we like to play do like progress
     
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  9. HixBozo

    HixBozo Warlord

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    I wouldn't say that anyone of them is better over the other. Is geographic dependent. Maybe even not, you can win either one of them. The choice is only early game, you will have more choices to make further into the game; choices that can turn the scales. It is a long game with many choices
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  10. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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  11. stii

    stii King

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    Map does make a pretty huge difference small has a lot less space for cities than huge, even after you divide by players.

    My main issue with progress is that it is better when the map is already easier. If you have loads of room maybe progress is better but those games are already a lot easier than the games where you are squeezed for space between multiple AI players.
     
  12. black213

    black213 Emperor

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    I feel like the Progress opener's science per capital pop is a bit counterintuitive in design since you'll have to produce at least a few settlers in your capital until you have (grown to min 4 pop) secondary cities for settler production, as well as that Tradition should be the tree incentivizing growth. I'd like to see the science come from another source.
     
  13. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    I kind of like the Progress opener as it is. Progress is kinda of a middle ground between Tradition and Authority so I like that there are some growth and capital-related benefits.
     
  14. LifeOfBrian

    LifeOfBrian King

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    I too like Progress as it is, including the opener. The benefit of Progress is that you needn't build all your settlers in your capital, which mean you can let it grow sooner.
     

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