Tradition's 4 cities opening

[Browd]

This does not match my experience. As long as I "stand up" for the CS by telling the attacking or bullying civ that "they will pay," I don't lose influence with the CS. I do lose CS influence if I tell the AI that it won't affect our relationship -- i.e., if I announce that my relationship with the AI is more important than my relationship with the CS, the CS quits me with disgust (and who could blame them--I'm not even willing to protect them with words? Bah! Some protector....).

 

[Donaskme]

This does not match my experience.

Yeah, I'm trying to explicitly remember what I did, and now I'm not sure if I'm correct. I'll try and remember to give it a go with tonight's game and refresh my memory.

 

[Moriarte]

But you still need 3 sp in Rationalism asap and I doubt getting there would be faster with 'wasting' policies on Patronage than without it no matter how much you invest in culture.

Not exactly wasting. Aesthetics + Pledge combo will give you 10+ permanent CS friends, which can be important early on. And yes, going for Order before scientific revolution is definitely better most of the time

 

[The Pilgrim]

have you ever been denounced by your RA partner before the RA completes?

I think so. I'll be honest I never payed close attention to this issue, but I've got 'empty' RA bug pre-patch myself. I thought it was a bug then and I think it's a bug now. There is a possibility RA works only as long as you're friends, i.e. at the turn it resolves you need to have an active DoF. If so, the feature should be documented.

i'll play some games and use pledge's again just to get a save from it. that was the only reason i stopped pledging was from losing their favor for not actually going to combat for them. this was pre-patch btw so if its changed since then i wouldnt know.

That's definitely not the case. All you need to do is to choose 'you'll pay for this' option.

Not exactly wasting. Aesthetics + Pledge combo will give you 10+ permanent CS friends, which can be important early on. And yes, going for Order before scientific revolution is definitely better most of the time

That's why there are brackets. Patronage is not a waste, of course, however it does delay Rationalism. The questions are how big the delay is and how bad it hurts in the long run. We obviously need more testing to do.
The problem with picking Order before SR is that with SR being the third policy from the end you only get 1 wave of fully buffed RA's. Is it better to have factory bonus earlier but only one wave of 'full' RA's boosted by it too or to unlock it later but enjoy 2 waves of good RA's? I don't know.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

ugh. no, The Pilgrim. I'll try to get a save to show you that they dont come to you when they take actions against CSs you pledged to.

 

[Moriarte]

I managed a couple of sub 200 diplo games lately. Both of them had 0 RAs. Fully neglected Patronage too, went 3 in Rationalism after Tradition, Order's factories and didn't manage to pick SR at all in both of these games, since my culture was lacking

In gotm48 tommynt managed to do full tradition, 3 in Patronage (up to science from CS), 3 in Rationalism and still he picked up order's factories, filled rationalism and finished spaceship on t. 213. Which says it all basically.

 

[The Pilgrim]

ugh. no, The Pilgrim. I'll try to get a save to show you that they dont come to you when they take actions against CSs you pledged to.

Please do. What you describe totally contradicts my experience. Maybe we just mean different things? I don't have a clue.

Which says it all basically.

Yeah, that says quite a lot. You do need a huge pop, though. I don't know whether we should be happy about it or sad. I didn't like the way old RA's worked, neither like the current version.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

i think it says your experience isnt the only experience to be had in the game. my exasperation came from having to repeat that you dont always get the civ to come to you for every action taken against your pledged CS.

its kinda like how the game at some point quits telling you when you have a new citizen with the green pop icon. it isnt a 100% action.

 

[The Pilgrim]

i think it says your experience isnt the only experience to be had in the game. my exasperation came from having to repeat that you dont always get the civ to come to you for every action taken against your pledged CS.

its kinda like how the game at some point quits telling you when you have a new citizen with the green pop icon. it isnt a 100% action.

Hammer Rabbi, I have no problem to admit I'm wrong when I'm wrong. Prove me I am and I'll apologize for doubting your observations.

Edit: and to make it clearer - I don't claim AI comes to you every single time when it takes actions against your CS, I can't claim that since I don't pay that much attention, but only that you don't lose influence due to circumstances you're not offered to make a choice about.

 

[budweiser]

Re: RA bug. If they denounce you, the deal falls through and you get nothing.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

Hammer Rabbi, I have no problem to admit I'm wrong when I'm wrong. Prove me I am and I'll apologize for doubting your observations.

Edit: and to make it clearer - I don't claim AI comes to you every single time when it takes actions against your CS, I can't claim that since I don't pay that much attention, but only that you don't lose influence due to circumstances you're not offered to make a choice about.

that was never once a focus of the discussion. that may be where miscommunication/assumptions came into play.

but i did notice i lost influence w/CSs when im not notified by the AI for their aggressions against it. i dont know how much influence if any i lost with the AI but the CS loss is tangible since i can check it. but it also requires i be quite up to date to remember if i was 44/60 (or whatever) and then lost some from not protecting without ai notification. but that was when people were focusing more on Patronage/CSs instead of RAs to avoid the bugs. and since I started to do the same I was paying a lot more attention to their status each turn.

and i dont need to prove you 'wrong' on this. you can pay more attention to the little details in the game or not. late in the game 20+ notifications come up and if you dont read them all then you miss details like that. it isnt my job to save you the time.

it took me a long time in vanilla to realize they actually had value before i started paying attention to many of them. i was still naive on the amount of patience/micromanagement was needed to get better at the game. at least the patch consolidated CS war/peace notifications to save some effort.

 

[Browd]

Not sure what all the fuss is about. All I know is my own experience. In games where I've gone the Pledge to Protect/Aesthetics route, my CS influence restng point rises to 30 and stays there as long as I reliably tell AIs that "they will pay" for their aggression/bullying and don't end up in a war with that CS (i.e., where the CS is an ally of someone I'm at war with). (When the war ends, I can usually re-pledge and get going again.)

Influence rises, of course, if I satisfy quests or drop gold, but gradually attrits back to the resting point (as it should).

Infuence may temporarily drop below the resting point if there are "election shenanigans", but I've never seen it drop below 30 because of unannounced aggression by an AI. (There are times when I've mis-clicked "it won't affect our relationship" and my CS influence drops like a stone, but that's my fault.)

Give it a fresh try in a test game and see if your experience differs. If it does differ, we'll have some fun doing forensics to figure out why.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

ive seen in past games a notification that said (paraphrased) 'your influence dropped w/ 'X' CS for not protecting them' and it never went to a cut screen of the AI saying anything abour their actions. and i dont think it couldve been from a barb invasion i did nothing about. its happened a couple times. im not sure the necessity in replicating it but i said earlier ill try to find one and save it 1 turn before the turn when it happens. its not particularly easy to do since i have to wait for it to happen. it's also time consuming enough.

 

[Browd]

Fair enough. I've gotten that message a number of times, but IIRC only when I've done the mis-click thing and forgiven the AI ... or bullied my own protectee (I can't be expected to remember everyone I've pledged to protect).

 

[budweiser]

Fair enough. I've gotten that message a number of times, but IIRC only when I've done the mis-click thing and forgiven the AI ... or bullied my own protectee (I can't be expected to remember everyone I've pledged to protect).

The mis-click on that message is brutal. Almost enough to warrant a reload.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Re: RA bug. If they denounce you, the deal falls through and you get nothing.

Has this been confirmed?

that was never once a focus of the discussion. that may be where miscommunication/assumptions came into play.

but i did notice i lost influence w/CSs when im not notified by the AI for their aggressions against it.

Don't you think these two sentenses contradict each other?

Of course you don't have to prove me anything. All I'm trying to do is to help you figure out why you lose influence when you're not supposed to. If you insist you are, well... what can I say? Enjoy the mecanics.

Fair enough. I've gotten that message a number of times, but IIRC only when I've done the mis-click thing and forgiven the AI ... or bullied my own protectee (I can't be expected to remember everyone I've pledged to protect).

Exactly.

 

[budweiser]

Pilgrim - it happened to me last last week. I saw it.

I'm surprised no one else has noticed it.

 

[Txurce]

It's hard to confirm the RA question. In the game I'm playing right now I have had messages saying I received a boost from a RA made with a civ who subsequently denounced me. That would seem to indicate you get something - although not necessarily the same.

As for losing the "Pledge" bonus due to invisible occurrences - I've never had this happen to me, either.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Pilgrim - it happened to me last last week. I saw it.

I'm surprised no one else has noticed it.

It happened to me months ago (can't say about denouncements, but RA provided 1 beaker exactly). I saw it too. The question is whether it's a bug or a feature. I will pay closer attention from now on, at this point I have no reason not to trust you guys. I took a brief look at .dll, nothing resembling what you describe. However that means nothing. It's hard to find anything in there.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

Don't you think these two sentenses contradict each other?

Of course you don't have to prove me anything. All I'm trying to do is to help you figure out why you lose influence when you're not supposed to. If you insist you are, well... what can I say? Enjoy the mecanics.

you need to explain this thoroughly. i see no confusion based on what you and I said prior to this. i dont need help in why i lost influence. i understand it. im only explaining exactly how it happened to me (and why i dont like pledges), which isnt how it happened to you. there was no cut scene, not interjection by an AI to say they took an action on your CS. i dont know how more clearly it needs to be said but id love to know how what i said contradicts anything.