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Tradition's 4 cities opening

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Tabarnak, Jul 9, 2012.

  1. Hammer Rabbi

    Hammer Rabbi Deity GOTM Staff

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    btw, i also checked the bugs thread about this (RA fizzles) and posted to try and spur some mods involvement. its not in the confirmed bugs page and even after someone posted their saves no mod came in to confirm/unconfirm it. it goes back to June or July.

    for me it now makes sense to only get 1 beaker or a turns worth, but it never happened to me just for the DoF expiring. it was always for doing something antagonistic (settling, spying, etc.) to get a denouncement or even just to change from friends to neutral/hostile/guarded. did they change DoF turn limits in the patch? I remember them only being for 10 turns but i honestly ahvent been paying attention to them recently since i dont sign many RAs anymore.
     
  2. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    I don't see a point in argueing just for the sake of the argument itself, but I will explain, since you asked nicely. I mentioned (and emphasized) you're not supposed to lose influence in cases where you're not offered to chose 'side'. Then you claimed that was never a focus of this discussion. The main subject is you lose influence when AI is nasty towards your CS while you're not offered to chose a 'side'. Can you see my problem? ;)
    Anyways, I get it, you like it the way you think it works and need no help. Enjoy the mechanics. :)
     
  3. Hammer Rabbi

    Hammer Rabbi Deity GOTM Staff

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    and i clearly replied that i had experienced the opposite and that what you think is 'supposed' to happen doesnt 100% of the time happen, just like you didnt know RAs can fizzle without being broken by war. (but you did post in the bugs forum about it.) I dont think its a bug either, but i could be wrong. It isnt mentioned in bug reports as confirmed (the RA fizzle) and the AI not coming to you for every bully doesnt even have its own thread from what I saw and tried to search for in the bugs forums.

    the focus was on your assertion of what was supposed to happen, not the understanding on how one loses influence. we both understood that influence can be lost but had different experiences on how. again, it didnt contradict anything.
     
  4. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    Getting this strategy discussion back on track, here's what I did to do better on culture (with only 4 cultural states total) while maximizing science (and fighting some):

    Set up: Mayans, Immortal, standard Pangaea
    Strategy: 4-5 cities focusing on production and gold, science victory, focused policies, not ordered for speed

    Policies:
    Tradition
    Legalism
    Monarchy
    Landed Elite
    Aristocracy
    Oligarchy
    (tradition finished turn 80) - 50 bpt with 1 academy
    Patronage
    Philanthropy
    Aesthetics (to save future gold)
    Scholasticism (turn 140) - 200 bpt with universities
    Rationalism
    Secularism
    Free Thought - 430 bpt with 1 observatory
    Humanism
    Scientific Revolution - 700 bpt with public schools
    Order - holding off on the last Rationalism policy
    Planned Economy - 1000 bpt, Apollo built
    Sovereignty - 1400 bpt with research labs and Hubble

    Builds:
    (typical early builds)
    then...
    pyramids, libraries
    Oracle (cultural boost #1)
    National College
    (then money buildings Currency to Education)
    universities (after Education)
    (more money buildings after Banking)
    Oxford (to Industrialism - cultural boost #2, over 100 cpt)
    then amphitheatres, opera houses (boost #3 to 170 cpt)
    public schools
    Louvre and museums (final boost to 200 cpt)
     
  5. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak R.I.P.

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    I never get Archology early when i play science games. Only near the end when i need the last spaceship tech from the top tech tree. Maybe i should next time if it can help me getting more policies before the final push...probably after Plastic.

    Hmm why Louvre? It slows down your gs production. Can you expain?
     
  6. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    I did Archaeology early, after Sci Theory/Steam Power and before Biology/Electricity. The Louvre was then built in a city that had finished public schools (and three scientists) while the other cities were finishing up operas and then public schools. The capital was doing the much needed Circus Maximus and I was fighting a very successful puppeting war with Ottomans at the same time.

    The reason for the Louvre at the time was that the city had completed the science/cultural buildings but there was a window before the production boosts that Electricity gives. But the main reason was I needed the GAs for golden ages, one immediately to get culture over 200 cpt (which allowed me to get Order and Planned Economy timed right before Apollo and Plastics) as well as ramping up gpt. I saved the second GA for right after Hubble for the spaceship parts. I knew I wasn't going to get any GA otherwise since specialists were all scientists, merchants and engineers (in that order). All of the spaceship parts and 13 techs were all completed in under 25 turns.
     
  7. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    Nice, you mixed up cultural and scientific game play. How fast did you finish though? 200 bpt on turn 140 tells me, you would be better off not going 4 in Patronage, but 1 or 2. Usually, when opening rationalism + secularism around t. 115 you get the same beaker rate. Which snowballs and can let you clear workshop --> public school tech. line faster.
     
  8. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    I know, you're right even though I only went 3 into Patronage. As noted, I could've skipped Aesthetics but I believe that saved thousands on gold in all of the alliances. I think I did get a slow start on culture, waiting until till I timed Oracle to finish Tradition. I'll take a look at opening Rationalism much sooner even though I do want to get Scholasticism before that. I don't play optimally since I do like a variable gameplay (always got to fight at least one major war, and I do keep military demographics in the top 3-4) but I did do this in under 300.
     
  9. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    The difference between RA thing and losing influence in the way you claim you do, is that the first case is something many people experienced and reported and the second is something nobody has seen but you. Although if you're happy with the way it is for you, this discussion has absolutely no point and should not be continued. Let's not get even more off topic here.

    Moderator Action: If you recognize it is off topic, then let it go or go and start another thread to further discuss it. Continually saying let's drop it and continuing it could be considered trolling.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  10. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    Buccaneer, what turn did you get the Louvre? Usually by the time I'm done with all necessary stuff, it's gone.
     
  11. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    Here were the approx. turns for only the World Wonders (again, not playing optimally since I don't really try to):

    Oracle - 80
    Hagia - 105
    Pisa - 140
    Taj - 190
    Louvre - 225

    But you're right, it normally would've been gone by that time. In fact, my spy saw that Arabia was building it at the same time (like 7 turns away) and I sacrificed a little to get it done in 5 more turns.

    Come to think of it, the city-states alliances (where much of the gold went, besides military upgrades) and the golden ages (54 turns worth) did provide a lot of the boosts listed. I'm not sure if that's typical in such a strategy.
     
  12. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I usually play on Immortal, but have lately played Emperor to see the difference. For me it comes down to true runaway AI's on the other continent, who as a rule can win a science victory as early as the 280s. I go 50-50 in these games; on Emperor, it's still hard for me to lose. My scores range from the 280s to the 320s, whether playing 4-6 cities or 8-12 with Carthage or the Maya. Here's what I don't understand:

    I usually go with Tradition, and take one Patronage before moving on to Rationalism. I sometimes don't finish that tree, let alone move on to others. I try to build my pop and science specialists in all my cities. I have only enough CS alliances to stay happy. I usually get the PT, sometimes the Pyramids and the Chapel - the Oracle, rarely.The biggest variable is how many RA's I sign, starting asap.

    What I don't understand is how your science is so high (200 bpt on t140, etc). Mine doesn't get there until t.160-185. I'm often under 80 at t120! So my question is 1) how do you get so much science so early, and 2) how do I more or less catch up, as I seem to do?
     
  13. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    Well, there is one way to reach high bpt early - high population. That can be achieved by conquering few cities fast and using your military to pick up numerous early CS alliances. So, my advice would be - build/buy early army. Train them in any way possible, don't keep them in towns. With some practice you will be able to set up 3+ cities and capture another 3-4 by turn 100. Steal workers: 1 from CS, as many as you can from AI. Having 6 cities with 3 workers or with 8 workers is a huge difference to your ecenomy. You should be unlocking education around turn 100. Rush/build universities. Your population should be high enough by that time to run specialists. With 6+ cities at turn 100 you will have a solid base to move forward towards any victory.
     
  14. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    That's probably good advice but I believe I did it differently. First, it was a little over turn 140. At that time, I had my 5 cities (and no puppets yet) and I don't think they were that big (I was ranked my usual #4-5 in population). When I got Education done on turn 114, I was at the typical 81 bpt. Then five universities with 1-2 scientists each and when Scholasticism popped about 30 turns later (right after the last university), I was at 200 bpt. This also included, during those 30 turns, three additional city-states and likely more scientists (don't know if I had 10, I didn't record that). Also, during those 30 turns, I went from #7 in soldiers to #3 (thanks to some Knights and Crossbows upgrades). I don't see any additional reasons, other than pop growth, that it went from 80 to 200 in those 30 turns.
     
  15. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    I just finished another game and missed all of them, except for Hagia which I didn't try to build, by 2-5 turns. ~7 CS wanted Eifel Tower - missed it by 2 turns as well. Epic stuff. :) Decided to ignore RA's completely. Peaked at 1600 :c5science:. No Scholasticism, but 4 observatories. Still only 260. With 2 waves of 4 RA's each in the worst case scenario would have been low 220's finish. How do you guys do it without them?
     
  16. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    What size are your cities?
     
  17. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    I basically only do 2-3 RAs at most. I seem to prefer to spend gold on city-states for the science and other bonuses (not to mention war allies or at least buffers) and military upgrades. I know the benefits of RAs but I do ok tech-wise without them (as long as I can get a few techs from stealing).
     
  18. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    In my current game - Babylon with a bottleneck giving me a good peninsula - I reached Education on t121. The only detour was Construction, so I can't do much better with 4 cities, all built by the 60s. Each one has a library, shrine and colosseum, with some also having granaries or water mills. Additionally I allied with a Maritime CS on t101, and got a Militaristic off-and-on strictly by killing barbs.

    My city sizes: 11, 7, 5 and 4, all growing well now. I leave them on default until after the libraries are built, then switch to food. This was with 3 workers. I usually would have had 4, but spent 750g on the CS. I'm buying a fourth right now.

    The NC was built on t113. Science on t121? 69. This is completely out of whack with your scores.

    I built the Pyramids, but have done nothing to increase culture yet. I finished Tradition on t110, and am at 155/515(+14) for my next one, so it's much more likely I'll skip Patronage altogether. Scholasticism is just a fantasy.

    All of this will probably still get me a science win under 300, but you can see that it's despite an exceedingly slow bpt start.
     
  19. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    Under relatively optimal conditions - no AI threat - I managed to get the Oracle along with an Sp the turn after researching Acoustics. I built two quick uni's, bought a third, and finished the fourth on t155. I'm now about to try building the PT. Not much gold, so will wait for RA's until then. With two Academies, I now have 221bpt based on size 16, 10, 8 and 7 cities. This is about as good as I do.
     
  20. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    I can get away with stealing on deity, but on immortal, most of the time I'm usually the first one to reach the Renaissance, so all I can steal are 1 turn techs, Optics and such. Kinda sad. You wait 10 turns to steal junk. :rolleyes: I usually try to sign as many RA's as possible, but this time wanted to see how I can do without. It's not a question of winning, but finish date difference is significant. Moriarte says he doesn't use them and still manages to achieve early wins. :confused:

    Having granaries and watermills is more important than shrines and coliseums.

    He're is your problem. Your cities are too small. At 121 mine are something like 17, 10, 9, 8. And I'd love them even bigger.

    Way too late for NC. Try to cut down 20 turns and you'll see the difference.

    NC gets higher priority than any wonder, IMO. Including GL and Oracle. Pyramids just out of the question.
     

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