1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Tradition's 4 cities opening

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Tabarnak, Jul 9, 2012.

  1. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    8,263
    Location:
    Venice, California
    Regarding pop, I figured it was too low, but didn't see a way around it. Building food improvements ahead of colosseums and shrines is something I've never tried. I assume it will kill me as far as religion, but maybe not.

    I'm not sure how I cut down on the NC that much. By making the changes above? Maybe. At what point in build order do you get to libraries? (I do buy them if hammers are low.)

    Game update:

    As of t197, I have 492bpt. Babylon has 6 Academies, all on non-river grass (lucky). All four cities have Public Schools. (A new fifth city has nothing.) I built the Chapel and the PT, and have 2 RA's going with the top two science civs, with Scientific Revolution already in the bag.

    City sizes, slowed down building the Schools and Wonders: 20, 12, 10, 8 and (the new one) 5.
     
  2. Matthew.

    Matthew. Deity

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2011
    Messages:
    2,179
    Get Maritime city-states. Not only will they cover growth, but if you add additional cities later on (and if you are going science and have happiness, there is no reason not to add additional cities), it will allow them to catch up before game's end.

    NC was probably late due to too slow on settlers. I would argue a later NC is ok, but only in the case of dropping 6+ cities with Liberty. Agreed on dropping at least 20 turns off that.
     
  3. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

    Joined:
    May 10, 2012
    Messages:
    1,927
    I find conditions more optimal when the threat is near :D. The threat can grow a future town for you, and supply you with workers. The threat can even throw in a useful wonder once in a while.

    Anyway, this game didn't end scientifically --->

    P.S.: If you're curious how i got capital so close to Moscow, the answer is: i walked with settler. Diff. -- immortal.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2001
    Messages:
    3,562
    Yeah, the only thing that can come before National College is Oracle, esp. if it's timed that Oracle will finish Tradition. Otherwise, you build NC as soon as the last library is built/bought.

    Four cities have to be up by turn 60; however, I do mix shrines, colosseums with water mills and granaries as long as I get the libraries done when I have Writing (which is coming around turn 40 for me). But I do prioritize gold buildings as soon as I get Currency above anything else. Also, I prioritize cultural city-states above maritime since in my games, there are so few cultural c-s. I'm finding it easy to get Friends with maritimes just by doing nothing (i.e., let events fall in place), so those give me good food bonuses.

    Finally, the importance of getting four cities up and running cannot be overstated. That was the missing piece for me in being successful every time on Immortal. But not only that, the most important thing for me about getting the cities up is claiming the sweet spots. You should cover all of the luxuries in your region, ending up with 15-20 of them and 8-10 uniques. But sweet spots must also include good food tiles (wheat, cows, floodplains) for growth. Selling luxs is the key for lots of gold which means all of the cultural city-states (+12/24 culture which makes a difference in the early game to get into Patronage and/or Rationalism) and the plentiful maritimes for growth.
     
  5. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2009
    Messages:
    3,007
    Location:
    Virtual reality
    If you're chasing religion without having any bonuses towards it (i.e. +1 :c5faith: per shrine), you kill your growth. Try to avoid it and see how this goes.

    At the beginning there are only two buildings I care about - library and granary. What comes first depends on whether I can get all libraries up by ~80. Sometimes I rush buy a granary, sometimes a library. After that watermills, circuses and markets. In this order. Assuming I've already got few units for defense.
     
  6. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2009
    Messages:
    3,007
    Location:
    Virtual reality
    Shoking! :D Nicely done. I also love to start near aggressive expansive neighbor. Soft cities, easy to pick. Today I had very useful Mongols all over my south. Conquered cultural CS before I had a chance to meet it. Free cultural ally, low pop pupets and someone to sell horses to when everyone else is in Modern. :D

    :eek: What map are you talking about? What 10 uniques?
     
  7. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2001
    Messages:
    3,562
    Yeah, I've come to the conclusion that religion is only good for growth and science/gold bonuses (plus Holy Warriors if needed). That's why I didn't talk about religion in my details since it's nearly irrelevant. It is important, though, to get a religion and its enhancements just so you can use faith for great persons when they really count.

    Standard Pangaea. The screen shot of my five cities were shown earlier in the thread. Recall that I captured the German capital very early and so I got their civ resources in addition to the lands that were staked out for me.
     
  8. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    8,263
    Location:
    Venice, California
    I played the Dutch following this strategy, building worker+shrine+2 settlers+4 archers+library+granary+NC in the capital, granaries+libraries in the cities. Four cities were up by t55. I built one worker, got lucky and stole another, and eventually bought two more, plus a trireme to explore. Low hammers in the capital led to the NC being built in t109, just before I finished Tradition. That was an improvement on my last game. But my city sizes - mostly default, later food, with the capital on production during the NC - were a very disappointing 8, 8, 6 and 6 on t121, for a bpt of 57.

    I'll try it again, but the results were
     
  9. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2009
    Messages:
    3,007
    Location:
    Virtual reality
    It's situational of course, like everything else. :)


    The one without resource icons? :D I can't see a damn thing. :mischief: Spotted some marble and incense, but that's it. I believe you, although having 8-10 uniques even per 2 neighboring civs is above average from my experience.

    I can tell you what I currently do. I buy a worker as soon as I can sell some gpt (turn 15-17), steal another one and buy one or two more in secondary cities, improve the luxes and sell them asap. Try to buy two settlers and hard build one. Sometimes with 'slower' luxes or extremely poor AI I have no choice, though, then I buy one and build two.
    I never build shrines with non-religious civs. In satellite cities I build granaries (buy if I can) and then libraries. Again, the order can be reversed, but I actually prefer it this way. Including working hills and delaying growth if there are no food+hammers tiles and I can't chop forests there. Settle on hills as much as I can to get extra hammer (settling on mining luxes is the best, IMO).
    Build order in capital is scout, monument, granary, military unit or scout or worker, this varies based on neighbors, barbs and quests, available luxes etc. Let it grow to size 5 (build archers in the meanwhile) and only then consider hard building settlers. After all settlers and workers are out, build more archers and a library once I have Writing.
    Tech-wise: Pottery, luxes techs, Archery, Writing, Masonry (if it's not done yet), Philo/Construction. None of them is critical at this point, but if there is no immediate danger, I prefer to build more archers and then upgrade, rather than build expensive CB's. Thus I delay Construction and pick Philo first. If I count on warring soon, then Construction first. Once all libraries are done, I switch to production focus and build NC. Chop forests.
    Policies-wise: obviously Legalism, Landed Elite. Then it also may vary. With early aggression Oligarchy gets a priority. If I have 'manageable' unhappiness, i.e. such that can be fixed by Monarchy, I take it. Otherwise Aristocracy to speed up the NC. Using this strategy I complete it under t90 90% of the time under t95 100% of the time.

    High pop in capital is absolutely crucial. Not only it adds to your beakers, but also helps to build NC fast. If you hard build all settlers by turn 55, it means your capital didn't have a chance to grow at all. Try to use Dutch UA to you favor. When AI doesn't have cash, you can trade lux for lux and get 6 :c5happy: per resource. Avoiding unhappiness wall allows growth while you keep expanding. So grow, grow, grow. :) And pay attention to CS quests, maritimes specifically.

    P.S. And one more thing: I highly recommend to micromanage your citizens. At least at the beginning. Production focus isn't really production focus with the new 'improved' governor. Even if you're unhappy, it won't assign tiles properly but will keep the balance between food and hammers to prevent starvation.
     
  10. Plumfairy

    Plumfairy Prince

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
    Messages:
    355
    Expanding on this:

    Specifically, whenever you're hard building settlers you should micromanage your citizens. Every single one should be assigned to a hill (even if it's unimproved) or similar production tile. Those two production help you more than the three food of that farmed grassland.*

    But with the exception of building settlers, I *really* like the change they made to the city governors. It is *so* nice not having to double check the citizen assignments to make sure he's not starving my city.



    *I've noticed a peculiarity here, and I'm not sure if it's a bug or if I'm not understanding something. There are times when a moving a citizen from a 3 food tile to a 2 production tile actually *increases* the estimated build time for a settler. It seems to happen inconsistently, but when it does occur, it's always when I'm abandoning the city's last food-giving tile.
     
  11. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak R.I.P.

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2010
    Messages:
    5,964
    Location:
    Québec
    Well, following the essence of this thread, to build 3 more cities before NC you need :

    -Many hills and/or nice hammer tiles around your capital(building settler from 3 or 4 :c5citizen:) and preferably build only 1 from your capital, before a granary(its a waste until you can really grow your capital)
    -Enough traders(if you only have 1 or 2 of them when playing semi isolated it can be difficult to relay on them just for settlers)
    -Some luck with cs and gold ruins

    Of course, if you plan to do cap+NC or 2 cities+NC strategies you need less gold to operate the empire and you probably want to not build a single settler from your capital until NC and you will also want an early granary(which is a good way to start a game if enumerated conditions are bad)

    And yes there is games where you can get more hammers when building settlers by working food tiles especially with Landed Elite enabled.
     
  12. Matthew.

    Matthew. Deity

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2011
    Messages:
    2,179
    Heh. I was just going to reply that the fourth city is fairly map dependent. Both on resources available, but space as well. I don't see the point in forcing an extra city into a few tundra and tons of ocean tiles.

    If it doesn't look like a good starting map, I will stick with one or two expansions, then puppet neighbor while NC is building. Two starting locations (yours and the AI you puppeted) will set you up just as well as four strong Tradition cities.
     
  13. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2001
    Messages:
    3,562
    I concur also about micromanagement. That means not only city workers - examine every turn if you have to - but external workers too. With external workers, be ready to switch off when a new tile or tech or opportunity opens up. You should not automate anything in the game if you care about maximizing production, food, gold, resources, etc.
     
  14. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2009
    Messages:
    3,007
    Location:
    Virtual reality
    Extra food is converted to hammers when you build settlers, just in lower ratio, not :1. I'm not sure what is the exact formula though.

    I agree. If there is room for only 3 good cities, it's better to build/buy two or three additional archers and grab a nearby capital instead. The problem with secondary AI cities is that they are usually placed in awkward spots. However, in most cases I manage to settle three good sites at least. Fourth can be not so good, but as long as it has enough food, that doesn't really matter. I can rush buy whatever it is not able to produce and use it for science only. Production-wise annexed capital will be more useful anyways. :)
     
  15. Jigokuro

    Jigokuro Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2012
    Messages:
    29
    So I just tried this strat playing on emp for the first time. Map type small continents, started on one with Montezuma. Sigh.
    I expected war quickly, so I made sure not to neglect the early/plentiful CB's, and took the +30% city attack power for pantheon.
    By turn turn 71 I had 5 and he, despite a bright red land covet from settling in his face AND on his butt, is asking for a DoF out of fear.:lol:
    I turned him down as I wanted his cap soon; he came back on 72 just to say I am incredibly wise and mighty and please be compassionate to his weak self.:D
    Seems my pantheon choice was a waste. Still, most fun I've had in a while.
    Great strategy and post, thanks.:goodjob:

    P.S. Kamehameha is RIDICULOUS in this setup. Between immediate embarkation letting you find lux buyers without them being threats and maori meatshields making your CB targets take -10% defense it is just plain OP. I'm pretty sure I could take even deity with this civ+map type.
     
  16. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2001
    Messages:
    3,562
    Did you get his cap as your 3rd or 4th city? I think that makes this strategy extra powerful (as I did when I got floodplained Berlin as my second city).
     
  17. Jigokuro

    Jigokuro Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2012
    Messages:
    29
    Going to be my fifth. Tradition doesn't aid captured cities anyway, and I was remaining cautious as until I upgraded my archers my mil adviser was still saying he was stronger. Also trying to attack straight in is much harder, since I won't have most of him units dead from a failed attack on my strong cities.
     
  18. dashwinner

    dashwinner Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    320
    Actually, I think tradition does. In my current game as Siam, and my first game trying this (awesome, btw) strategy, silly Napoleon decide to build his 3rd city, Lyon i think, litterally 5 tiles from my cap. We all know how that played out for him.

    Anyways, I decided to capture it, but puppet it as a stepping stone towards his capital. About 10 turns later, I pop my own 4th city further south, and I was unfortunately surprised to see both monuments and aqueducts NOT being present. I checked Lyon and there it was.


    Just wanted to say I've litterally spent the last 4 days at work reading this entire thread, and trying out the strat at home for the first time. It's amazing how fast things seem to happen with it, when previously I was struggling. I'll try and post some screenshots this weekend.
     
  19. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2009
    Messages:
    3,007
    Location:
    Virtual reality
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=482144 :)
     
  20. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2008
    Messages:
    1,814
    My sub turn 200 science win are usually with 8 policies in lower tree, 2 order 6 rationalism

    for that u need to be kind of constanly in GA and have quite some culture (CS help a lot aswell)
    And Louvre should be timed together with PT to hit in once the last scintist pops out (like 15 turns before end) - this enables u to build all spaceship in GA
    so time GA to hit in like 1. (happy) when reaching ren era - followed by a CI one

    then there ll be like 20 turns without GA - only if happy is really high - whats really hard after MCS nerf a 2nd GA is viable
     

Share This Page