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Tradition's 4 cities opening

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Tabarnak, Jul 9, 2012.

  1. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    You can always open your own thread with save file attached for more specific discussion. This is one of the strongest openings, obviously, but is not carved in stone at all. It needs alterations and adjustments just like any other strategy. Sometimes you have to limit yourself to 3 cities, sometimes you can expand to 6, sometimes Philosophy comes before Construction, sometimes after etc. So usually changing up is a good thing. Unless you change it in a wrong way. :)
     
  2. BWS

    BWS Big Bradd Wolfe

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    Righto. :) I'll see how my next game goes, and if I struggle again, I'll post a save.
     
  3. BWS

    BWS Big Bradd Wolfe

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    What's a good alternative to shrines for civs that don't need them?
     
  4. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Granary or water mill to boost growth rate? An early archer? Really anything your budding empire needs.

    But, when you say a civ that doesn't need a shrine, do you mean, e.g., Celts, who can found a pantheon with a few well-placed forest tiles or the Ethiopians with their monument replacement? Or are you referring to "regular" civs, without religion boosts, where you've decided not to chase a pantheon or religion?
     
  5. BWS

    BWS Big Bradd Wolfe

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    Right now I'm specifically thinking about Ethiopia. Speaking of which, is it worthwhile to prioritize a Stele, or should I just build it through Legalism?
     
  6. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Build the stele unless you pop an early culture ruin. Typically do scout => stele when playing Ethiopia.

    Remember that early 2 :c5faith: is not going to assure you of getting a religion. If you can claim a pantheon belief that will spit out superior levels of faith, you might dispense with a shrine, but that is terrain dependant. Since the earlier you get a religion the more likely your religion will spread ahead of others, even Ethiopia may find a shrine very helpful. On Diety, where the AI gets an additional settler, Ethiopia often founds a religion before turn 35/40 and enhances before turn 60.
     
  7. BWS

    BWS Big Bradd Wolfe

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    Thanks. I wasn't sure whether it was a good idea to delay the first worker to build the Stele early.

    That's kind of my trouble with this opening in general: I can't get a feel for which things are really important, or how to coordinate them. For example, should I rush to Construction, or only after I have enough archers built? How quickly do I need to get to libraries to have NC built at a reasonable time? I'm not seeing the connections between the different parts of the plan.
     
  8. BWS

    BWS Big Bradd Wolfe

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    Good point about building shrines even with Ethiopia. Is there enough time though, to build a stele and a shrine before expanding? These are the bits where I'm not sure how far it's safe to adjust the plan.
     
  9. Wargizmo

    Wargizmo Warlord

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    There's nothing wrong with rushing to construction, just know that if you still have a few archers building it's better not to finish it and research something else until the archers complete; otherwise the archers in progress will automatically become composite bows in progress and will take forever to come out.

    The techs leading up to construction are incredibly useful though, particularly the wheel (which unlocks roads and water mill).

    A lot of it depends on the map, for example if I'm isolated and not in danger of attack I'll tech writing before archery and build libraries first in my settled cities so I can get the national college up quicker.

    On the flip side of the coin I'll sometimes be so surrounded that I'll go one less city and just pump archers out of the capital instead of the built settler.

    You'll get a feel for it over time though, it's really one of those things where you've got to play a bunch of games.

    Ultimately to goal is either to tech up peacefully, which means getting just enough composite bows to be safe; or get in to an early war, which means building just as many as you need to take a city or two and then sue for a lucrative peace deal.
     
  10. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    With Ethiopia I usually go stele-scout-scout.

    For this specific strategy I'd say granary. It's all about early growth.

    If I manage to settle on lux and can't get faith boosting pantheon I'd even delay the worker to get a settler out, just because I want the second stele up and running asap. But obviously it's map dependent.

    Usually it's a good idea to rush buy/build a bunch of archers before Construction and upgrade. It's cheaper and thus quicker. If you start producing CB's from scratch with small cities you can find yourself defenseless for a period of time that is too long.

    Depends on difficulty. Before 90 or even 95 is ok most of the time. The earlier the better, of course, especially on deity.

    I'm yet to have a game when I needed shrines before Grand Temple to be honest. IMO, archers, watermills, workers - all better than shrines for Ethiopia or any other civ that can generate faith from alternative sources. Faith dedicated buildings are very expensive way to maintain religion, that's also why there is a tendency of ignoring it all together on higher difficulties with non religious civs. For example, on immortal you can get a religion regardless your civ, yet many times it simply isn't worth the effort.
     
  11. BWS

    BWS Big Bradd Wolfe

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    Thanks for all the tips, Pilgrim! I wouldn't have even considered stele-scout-scout. It makes sense to adjust things based on how much you need a worker, a mill, religion, etc.

    The shrines are the most awkward part of the plan in my experience. As you alluded to, I usually find that shrines are either redundant or insufficient, and so I feel like I should make better use of my time and hammers. Of course you'll want pyramids as Maya, but otherwise shrines don't seem that useful to me, unless I need an extra edge that I can't get from terrain or UAs.
     
  12. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    Exactly. Of course, on lower difficulties shrines are fine, since you can afford wasting hammers on whatever you want. :)
     
  13. secon

    secon Chieftain

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    i know i was looking at this strategy because it's alot different that my normal playstyle. i like to be small and do culture/diplomacy and i've been able to get culture wins on emperor and came within 3 turns of a diplomatic win. i wanted to try something new that i wasn't used to. i've been making progress. after one game with arabia where i improved i went back to the game i'd saved with rome isolated at the end of a long stretch of land. it worked out pretty well as i was able to finish china and had all that land to myself. but as i was finishing china off france declared war on me and sent in a tsunami of troops and it was all i could do to hold him off. he WOULD NOT even negotiate for peace and although it didn't hurt my science too bad it did slow me down as i had to divert cities to making military but i couldn't build enough to really turn the tide only to hold him at bay. the war went on for a stupidly long time (he started attacking me with trebuchet and when i finally got peace he was just introducing rocket artillery ;p

    don't think i'm going to win because catherine seems to be a bit ahead but i'm around turn 350 or thereabouts and my science is 1100 or so which boggles my culture based mind :p gonna play it out and see what happens.

    is there a guide somewhere about city improving/specialist using etc? because i can't seem to find much on it.
     
  14. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    This is a powerful strategy, thanks for posting it.

    I've found as France that it can be really useful popping into the Liberty tree for Liberty-Citizenship prior to coming back to finish Aristocracy-Oligarchy. With France's culture bonus, I'm finding I can consistently do that and still be back in time to have Aristocracy for the NC. Alternatively, can also use Liberty-Representation to boost library production, but Citizenship also opens up Meritocracy as a first option post Tradition finisher.

    EDIT to say: I'm finding I can consistently have 4 cities, plus be conquering a neighbour, plus have NC by approximately turn 100, which puts me in a very strong/winnable position. This is emperor/continents.
     
  15. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    I agree that straight Tradition is not always best. Sometimes its safe and 'good enough'.
     
  16. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    Not right now, but I believe War Academy staff is working on such article for a while. Eventually we'll get one.
     
  17. secon

    secon Chieftain

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    i definitely seem to be doing something wrong late game. i keep getting passed up in tech. my spies don't seem to be doing such a great job of getting me older techs and i'll have to backtrack a bit while my main competitor goes right on ahead building his or her spaceship ;p in my game with rome i had 1100 science near the end but i think the war with france set me back. was having trouble between building military and tech. then i played another game with rome where everything was pretty hunky dorey until after 300 turns of being friends india launches an enourmous assault and nukes the ass out of half my cities. i demolished 4 of his completely but it let catherine get into space. that one woulda been close.

    definitely need some tips on where to go late game as far as what to research and any wonders to go for.
     
  18. BWS

    BWS Big Bradd Wolfe

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    Sadato's Deity OCC Science guide has detailed information about mid- and late-game science. The opening is different but the rest should be relevant.
     
  19. jtravers88

    jtravers88 Chieftain

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    Try this on immortal with 3 of some lux besides cotton in your 1st and 2nd perimeters. If those lux only gave 1 food, as most do, you would not have done as well starting out.

    This is the problem with youtube vids on how to be a better civ player.

    But any effort is appreciated in furthering our expertise so thanks for the thread.
     
  20. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    When you say "try this," do you mean Tabarnak's strategy? Because if it does, YouTube videos have nothing to do with it. The strategy is an excellent way to start a game, especially on higher levels. Given that we're talking about Civ, results will vary.
     

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