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Tradition's 4 cities opening

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Tabarnak, Jul 9, 2012.

  1. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak R.I.P.

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    It depends of some important things :

    -Rush a neighbor or not
    -Enough traders
    -quality of land
    -your personnal goal
    -diff. level

    It also depends of player's xp and skills. There is no magic formulas. But generally, a 2 cities NC(then 2 more right after) is probably the ''safiest'' and 'easiest'' way to get education and open rationalism at a good rate. Main reason is that you can normally find a very good spot for a 2nd city with lot of luxs and ressources to sell while keeping a good amount of happiness. This allows you to sell a lot of stuff, rush buy important buildings and work on a wonder or 2, wonders that can help your science going up a bit faster from a long term view(Pyramids, HG, etc).

    But in term of production and power, nothing beat a 3 or 4 cities pre-NC approach. If you start with 4 cities pre-NC and want to get huge and fast science finishes you should take a lot more cities from the AI and most likely very early(starting with CBs in most cases), annex them and rush buy science buildings in them. This appoach is easier to achieve at emperor or below.

    For immortal or deity, a 2 or 3 cities pre NC approach works best. You can stay small and sign a lot of RAs. At these levels, RAs are a lot more valuable.
     
  2. Light Cleric

    Light Cleric ElCee/LC/El Cid

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    I've had this experience at Deity; finding that 4th city location in a defensible *and* desirable position is very difficult to do without an isolated start. Biggest problem is you're spending more gold/hammers on another Settler instead of Archers for defense against those very nasty early DoWs that Deity AIs throw at you, esp. Swords or ones with nasty early UUs like Attila or Darius(imo worst Deity AI to get early DoWed by, superpowered GA Immortals and Catapaults that move+attack on the same turn :crazyeye:).

    Was starting to wonder for a while if I was just effing something up with my opening but apparently not :p
     
  3. Emperor Giulio

    Emperor Giulio King

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    I started a thread, and with the help of other forum member, came to the conclusion to utilize the Tradition's 4 city opening strategy. Check out my thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=494789

    In there I discuss the results of using this approach (pics included).
     
  4. Hammer Rabbi

    Hammer Rabbi Deity GOTM Staff

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    at deity you could do this easier pre-patch even though it was still a challenge for players like me. im now just settling 2 or 3 and annexing a 4th if the conditions are right. at deity its hard to do this pre-80 but sometimes i get lucky with a good 4th city from one of the forward settling AIs but it depends on if the ai luckily picked one of those sweet spots. i can still get 4 cities quickly by t40-50 if i go liberty but they all have so much lower pops in the end, even when i hard-build aqueducts. and NC is up by t100 or so, not 60-80.
     
  5. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    Yeah, I've noticed you didn't settle 4 cities in your LP. How come? :D

    It's been like this forever though. It's not easy to find a worthy 4th spot even if we don't take defense into consideration. Sometimes not even 3rd. In vanilla settling mediocre spots wasn't too profitable since they chew up happiness and gave very little in return. In G&K, however, due to easier happiness non prime cities pay for themselves. But on deity defense has to be taken into consideration, so it's still not easy. On immortal it's much much easier.
     
  6. Hammer Rabbi

    Hammer Rabbi Deity GOTM Staff

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    defense is key but it now has to do with ai spending gold on units more than before. if they didnt spend the way they do now you could afford to buy settlers more, and by the time the deal expired you could renew it around t60 to buy a library or two in the weakest production cities and still start NC by t60 or 70. now they are broke and you are getting 150g and 2gpt for most of them. i rarely get a full 240g for any lux anymore. you really have to go tommynt style to max the gold from the AI.

    we used to do it with lux/strats, now we have to do it with wars. we also used to do sword rushes but now they arent as strong as bow rushes. im curious to see what BNW will define as the power strategy. i think it will be quite different.
     
  7. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    Settlers can be hard built. If there is a good spot, it's better be settled with hard built settler than grabbed by AI's city with its habit of settling on the least reasonable tile. I still finish NC before turn 90 with 4 cities and that's good enough to catch up in time.
     
  8. eldiablonoche

    eldiablonoche Chieftain

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    I've come to the realization I am cursed. :( Trying out this strategy on Emperor (standard settings continents/random civ) and on my 6th attempt (by far the best I've had so far).

    Playing Spain, 1 Natural Wonder on my entire continent which is on a peninsula behind Monty; he discovered it first obviously and border trapped my scout next to it(Gibraltar) when I snuck around to explore.
    By turn 100 all the AIs (Pacal and Kamehameha) must have been rush buying troops ASAP because they have never had more than 100 gold to trade. I checked every turn.
    Due to the lack of gold, they settled every spot that has more than 1 lux..
    Kame's first 3 cities have 3, 3, and 2 salt so he's growing like mad.
    Every CS I so much as get friendly with has been attacked within 2 turns, Pacal and Monty took 1 each; I DoWd Kame when he attacked a 3rd (I didn't know the extent of his salt network at the time)
    I currently have the lowest pop despite being 2nd in land (only Kame has 4 cities too). 3 of my 4 cities are coastal AND on a river. I've also hit 2 population huts. I think the civ gods are against me.. :crazyeye: As I said, this is the best attempt I've had!

    Question to move this away from a pure whine post... in the first 30-40 turns, would it be worthwhile to take GPT for a lux when the AI has no cash? I'd guess a delay on buying a settler is better than having to build one.
     
  9. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    Yes. No.
    A) Having money from sales is better than not having money from sales.
    B) Having 2 cities is better than having 1 city.

    Circumstances you describe are not a result of bad luck but more of a too literal interpretation of this guide. That's the problem with all strategy guides, people see them as something set in stone. Don't have enough cash to rush buy a settler - don't have a settler. Don't have enough cash to rush buy a library - don't have NC. Can't steal a worker from CS - don't have a worker etc.

    What should be taken from this thread is the main idea, which is expansion to several cities (4 in average) while maintaining a decent army (of CB's) and science (not delaying NC and growing i.e. positive happiness). The way to achieve this is highly situational. Sometimes you don't have 4 good spots, sometimes you have more than 4 good spots, sometimes you don't have money to rush buy everything you need, sometimes you get attacked on multiple fronts and need more units, sometimes you start isolated and need no units at all and the list goes on and on and on. You need to play the map and keep in mind the overall goal.
    - Finish NC before turn 100 (assuming 4 cities, subtract 15 turns for each city you don't have);
    - Unlock Education before turn 120;
    - Unless isolated have 4-5 archers before turn 70 and 4-5 CB's past turn 70;

    On higher levels earlier turns and possibly more units are required, but on emperor this will be enough for every game.

    You may post some screenshots to get map specific advice.

    P.S. Pop ruins are fantastic. What's wrong with them? :confused:
     
  10. Emperor Giulio

    Emperor Giulio King

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    I beat the game on King using this strategy. I am going to try it out on Emperor, so then I could at least live up to my forum name.
     
  11. eldiablonoche

    eldiablonoche Chieftain

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    Not taking it literally is precisely why I was questioning gpt as an option. No-one at any point had a stockpile of cash and I was unsure about undervaluing the sale... 27 gold + 4 gpt is a bit weak and the best trade I could get at any point within the first 90-100 turns. ;)

    Ya maybe that wasn't phrased very well.. pop ruins are fantastic, I was merely saying that even with 2 of them my total population is quite low (less than half the average acc. to the demos). I'd post screens but that hasn't worked for months and I doubt a big black square would be very informative. :lol:
     
  12. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    No, do not take it literally and 27 gold + 4 gpt > 0 gold + 0 gpt. :)

    The guy who payed $1mln. for such and art critics across the world might disagree. :D
    Here's a thread that deserves a sticky. :)
     
  13. Jelster

    Jelster Prince

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    Have to add that since reading this original post, a basic 4 city strategy has been my mainstay, and I don't think you can go wrong with it. I've done 4 city Liberty with early NC, same with Tradition, and when playing as Babylon, I often do the 4 cities, then expand to 6-8 at industrial to get oil and coal.

    What I have learned is that you need a stable backbone, and decent generation of both Culture and Science to succeed in almost any VC. Science to keep pushing through technologies to make different units & buildings available, and culture to get through the SP tree's.

    Also, all of this needs to be supported by a religion that gives you bonuses on your game plan. No one strategy in itself will win you the game, you need to combine 3 or 4 specific plans to bring you the win.

    At the end of the day, this guide is really good for novices, and when I go up a level I revert back to this to get me used to winning at that level before I start to divert away and try new things.
     
  14. shmily_dana

    shmily_dana Warlord

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    I've moved up to Prince and this is working well for me. I've been playing on duel maps, so I don't get the opportunity to sell luxuarys to multiple enemys. Once I get my cities up and running and have the biggest military, the AI will invade a city state near me. I'll rescue the city state. The enemy army is sandwitched between my army and the city state. He loses most of his army. He gives me gold for peace. If he gives me a city with no strategic value, I'll burn it down. He might try again if he has anything left to attack. Otherwise, I'll just heal and upgrade my army. I'll typically finish the game when I get to cannons or frigates. I'll probably experiment with this for a few more games.
     
  15. JorshRod

    JorshRod Chieftain

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    Thanks so much for the guide, has really helped me move up in difficulty the last few weeks!
     
  16. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak R.I.P.

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    You were almost the 200 000th viewer!!! :eek:

    With no lump sum of gold until DoF with an AI and other changes from BNW, this strategy will likely be outdated in approximatively...5 weeks! :cool:
     
  17. EEE_BOY

    EEE_BOY Deity

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    :goodjob: Congratulations, Tabarnak. Perhaps it's time for you to open up another thread to theorise the new Tradition opening with the current info from BNW? ;)
     
  18. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak R.I.P.

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    Policies will surely be revamped. It can be a very different story :)
     
  19. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    There can't be theories or speculations, that's for the people in the other forum. I do, however, look forward to new BNW strategies once the game comes out.
     
  20. Vo01985

    Vo01985 Warlord

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    BNW released in 5 weeks? Can't it be any sooner? :( My summer has already started...
     

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