Tradition's 4 cities opening

[DonStamos]

I just wanted to pop in here and say thanks for the strategy - I just got my first win in any Civ on Prince. I usually got ganged up on by AI because I tried to turtle too much or something, lol. Not this time. Got a REALLY late (2001 or so) Diplomatic victory on an Archipelago map as England despite there being a runaway Montezuma (who was bestest of friends with me all game, go figure).

I did have some questions, though, since I can't seem to get either NC by 100 or Education by 120:

Is the guide for standard speed? Or maybe its the lower difficulty that nerfed me.

I'm also curious about timing of worker construction, is it pretty much the 2nd/3rd thing that needs to be built in a city?

I also seem to keep missing the Great Library, which really irritates me, lol

 

[Unresolved]

I just wanted to pop in here and say thanks for the strategy - I just got my first win in any Civ on Prince. I usually got ganged up on by AI because I tried to turtle too much or something, lol. Not this time. Got a REALLY late (2001 or so) Diplomatic victory on an Archipelago map as England despite there being a runaway Montezuma (who was bestest of friends with me all game, go figure).

I did have some questions, though, since I can't seem to get either NC by 100 or Education by 120:

Is the guide for standard speed? Or maybe its the lower difficulty that nerfed me.

I'm also curious about timing of worker construction, is it pretty much the 2nd/3rd thing that needs to be built in a city?

I also seem to keep missing the Great Library, which really irritates me, lol

The guide(and most things in this forum) are written for standard speed. The most important thing is to get your NC up early. If you do, then Education's timing will also fall into place. The 4-city NC is only a guideline, there are 2-city and 3-city variations as well. You just use your best judgement based on your situation. For every city you deduct from the NC, you should shave 15 turns off of the NC completion time.

 

[Tabarnak]

When i made this thread i suggested to go for Metal Casting before Education. But most of the time you better go for Education first. And an early NC is your best friend to achieve that. That was a bit more production oriented strategy at first glance but it turned into a science oriented approach.

 

[DonStamos]

Just finished my first-ever OCC game using a variation of the tradition opening. Won by science on turn 432... I'm guessing that's horribly late. Especially considering I was Babylon, had NC by Turn 98 and Education by Turn 125-130 (I forget exactly, but was a little late because I didn't open the tech tree to make sure I was picking the right techs to get it).

I think at the end, I was getting around 600+ bpt. Arabia and the Netherlands ran away and both even passed me in tech in the Industrial Age for a bit. 3 boosters finished apiece, since they decided they'd rather fight each other than overtake my late tech lead and win. I fought two wars against the Inca, just for being irritating, and helped the Arabs wipe them out.

Spain got wiped out by a city state. William had already taken all but their last city, Cordoba. I got the pop-up saying they'd attacked, I said they'd pay for it (as I always do), and they were done the very next turn. The city state even razed Cordoba after taking it. Most hilarious thing I've ever seen happen in a Civ game yet.

 

[Jelster]

I've said it before, but will reiterate for newer users, this strategy is the mainstay of the way I play almost every game. Admitily I may substitute Tradition for Liberty on the rare occasion, but getting to writing, then NC with 1 or 2 cities is a very good method to give your empire a solid base.

I've resorted to just 2 or 3 cities on occasions when I've a number of puppets, or while playing as Babylon I've extended this to 7 or 8 to build science.

Overall the basics of this guide are excellent and provide the fairly new player with the confidence to go on and jump up the skill levels.

Like everything with this game, it's situational, but combine it with intelligent religious beliefs and it can be so strong. My current game saw me on an island all of my own until I reached Astronomy and I built a 4 city empire based on this strategy and a Gods of the Sea pantheon as there were a huge amount of water based lux's. Ccombine that with the Great Lighthouse and I knew I would come strong in the end.

You can't win just by using it, but making it part of your overall gameplan it will give you a decent start from which you can build.

I don't think I ever actually said Thanks, to Mr T for this - so thanks !!

 

[ScantilyCladLad]

Hey thanks Tabarnak. I started using this ages ago and it really helped me improve

i stopped Civ'ing for a while, came back today and tried my first ever deity game. Its a good game so far and more enjoyable than immortal as im not guaranteed a victory>

I picked china, started off sandwiched in between maya and babylon. Maya attacked me early and played like monty... he wouldnt make peace for well over a thousand years. I held him off, but his terrain is not suitable for an attack (chokepoints etc) so i focused my attention on Babylon. As soon as i hit the chokunu i ripped Babylon apart (2 cities + razed his 2 minor cities). His capital had 7 wonders including the alhambra one with the free castle, it was a hard slog but i took him.

Now its getting tricky, babylon is sandwiched in amongst india and austria (who is trying to run away but im keeping up so far, although she has annexed many city states). India attacked me followed by a DOW from pacal again. I manage to hold of Pacal easily, yet india had gatlings and rifles against my chokunu. Nonetheless, i fended off india until i hit gatlings myself (after getting the tech for public schools). Now i have 2 range gatlings but probably not enough of them (7, spread between fighting maya on the south front and india on the east).

If austria decides to attack im in trouble, although shes fighting spain on her other border. Its interesting though. Im not sure what i should go for now... artillery? bombers? just keep upgrading the gatlings? play defensive until i have nukes for austria?

Austria WILL become a problem, her empire is larger than mine although we have a similar score now. im not sure the best way to take her, any suggestions guys?

Thanks again tabernak ur guide is the tits

 

[Sabertooth]

I have to say I'm utterly at a loss as to how so many people find this strategy helpful. I've tried it half a dozen times at least and I get absolutely nowhere with it. I must be doing something wrong but I'll be damned if I know what it is.

Take the game I'm just starting as Rome (standard speed, pangaea, king difficulty). According to the OP, I should be able to build a scout + a worker by turn 20. My scout takes 7 turns, and building a worker after that takes 18 (if I let my city grow). I can speed that up by working a plains hill, to get my scout + worker out by turn 19 -- but that's 19 turns of stagnation in my capital. And to what end? It will take me 28 turns to beeline calender directly, without taking mining or AH in between. If I add in one of these other techs as well I won't be able to start improving a resource to sell it until turn 39 (!) I can get to that faster if I let my capital grow, of course, but then I can't produce units fast enough.

So at turn 20 I'm still 8 turns away from producing my first worker and 10 turns shy of calendar, but even if I had both of these and a luxury to sell my only discovered neighbor has 122 gold, and I have 182 -- not even close to the 500 I need for a settler.

At turn 30 I've finally completed Calendar because, following the guide, I went pottery -AH - calender. My closest neighbor has already settled the choicest spot in the area and stolen the three luxuries I was planning to settle next to/on. And of course by this point my capital is being harried by barbs, which causes further delays...

To make a long story short, I buy my first settler on turn 40, having not even had a chance to sell a single luxury yet, on or around the period I should be purchasing my second settler, according to the guide. During this period I should have been able to build a scout, a worker, a shrine, 3 to 4 warriors, and be working on a 3rd settler that will come out somewhere around turn 45. Instead, I've bought one settler, and my capital has managed to produce a scout, a worker, a shrine, and is now working on it's first warrior. At this point it will take Rome 18 turns (!) to build the settler that should be coming out in 5 turns, and I have 1 warrior and 1 scout for defense.

And this is the way it always goes for me when I play this opening.

What am I doing wrong?

 

[Browd]

First, Tab's guide was written before the patch that caused the AI to spend its gold more liberally, so there is less gold on the map, slowing this strategy down and pushing back specific time markers for lux sales and settler buying. The strategy is still directionally quite useful, even if it will take longer than originally designed. (And, for what it's worth, under BNW you won't be able to do lump-sum gold sales without a DOF, so the whole thing is going to have to be rethought.)

Second, on scout + worker timing, if you settle on a hill and work a decent food tile, you should have your scout out in 5 turns, and with a citizen popping a few turns later, a turn 19-21 worker is acheivable, without sacrificing growth. If you settle on the flat, you will need to work a stone tile (still 5-turn scout) or a 3-food tile (7-turn scout) and may have to buy a better producing tile for your second pop to get your worker on time (may slip to turn 22-24). If a religion seems acheiveable, I will usually put some turns into a worker before switching to a shrine and then either back to a worker or, if I've stolen a worker by then, a granary before going back to hard-build a worker.

 

[Tabarnak]

Yep, working a non riversided stone tile is better than a riversided calendar lux. Ratio of gold/prod is approx 4:1 so it's always better to work prod instead unless you are only a few turns away from an important trade(and you need some extra gold, like for a loan). The worker needs to get out around the turn 20-23 and try to steal one from a cs early so he can work lux tiles from the 2nd city(around the turn 30 at best) and make the thing snowballing.

 

[Justice1337]

Scout + Worker on T20 is pretty ambitious, everyone has to admit. I find that unless I have sheep and a 3 food tile to open, the first Worker I can possibly build finishes not too much later than time I steal one from an adjacent city state. So while pursuing the sell lux for Settler ploy, I've just started on my own to seldom build a Worker at all before Monument or Shrine. This is particularly better for those rough cases that I have more than one luxury tech to research, luxuries are jungled, or just for when my Civ has a UB there, like Maya or Ethiopia. Connecting luxuries and selling them is still my top priority from Turn 1, but that line is not confined to a Tradition opening anyway in the first place.

Also, keep in mind that AI's will have less gold on lower difficulties, and at the same time, they get huge discounts on the higher difficulties and spend liberally. Consequently no matter what difficulty you play on, it is now rare to find an AI with the full 240 Gold (Standard Speed). I play on Immortal, mostly epic speed, and I find myself trading for Gold Per Turn every time in addition to whatever lump sum I can get. I just make do with whatever terms the AI can give me, full price all tallied, and wait a while I get up to 500g. Still, multiple AI's to trade to, more than one copy of a luxury in the same tech, along with 2 Workers before Turn 30 can still lead to a very early Settler. It's just that it's more along of an outstanding opening that you shoot for, rather than a book opening that's achievable every single game.

 

[Browd]

It really isn't that hard. Just fired up two Random civ, Pangaea, Standard size and speed Deity maps. Screenshots attached.

Rolled Celts first, with a nice food/production site (settled on hill and worked forest deer, but also has plains wheat and marble), so scout popped on turn 5, and tooltip shows worker coming out 11 turns later (and a second citizen popping in 3 turns, so worker will be faster than that).

Rolled Rome next, with almost nothing useful - grasslands and jungle tiles, a desert hill, a forest tile and a cow tile. Settled on flat grassland and worked the cow tile, so second citizen popped on turn 5 (assigned to work forest) and scout popped on turn 6. Tooltip shows worker will pop in 14 turns (third citizen in 11 turns, so worker may be a turn faster).

 

[Justice1337]

Yeah, Deer starts are pretty ideal, and I really like any Cow starts because they almost always have a good adjacent forest tile. Banana, Citrus and Oasis are 3 food tiles of coures, but they often don't have a good second tile for production that doesn't dramatically punish your growth. You often have to pick between a 2 hammer Hill tile and a 2 food floodplain or luxury tile. The recommendation here is probably to go for the 2h tile. I actively adore Sheep starts because of the extra food added to that 2 hammer tile setup, but sheep aren't always there of course.

 

[Scorpionleader]

So at turn 20 I'm still 8 turns away from producing my first worker and 10 turns shy of calendar, but even if I had both of these and a luxury to sell my only discovered neighbor has 122 gold, and I have 182 -- not even close to the 500 I need for a settler.

I found that if your starting production allows you to get a scout in 5T, then you can get a worker in the low 20T. If the scout won't be built for 7T, you're looking at around 30T.

 

[Tabarnak]

Consequently no matter what difficulty you play on, it is now rare to find an AI with the full 240 Gold (Standard Speed).

Not true, the AI will likely have more gold in his bank before the turn 30 than after. They tend to accumulate their gold a little bit before spending them. That's a good reason to hurry the first luxury hooked.

And, people, if you start with cow and hill don't be afraid to use the hill as soon as you hit 2 . You better get 240 gold 6 turns earlier and have 3 than missing the AI stack of gold and get a gpt deal with a little lump sum of gold with 4 .

Play a lot of starts. Compare runs. Place your best bets and see the difference.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

Not true, the AI will likely have more gold in his bank before the turn 30 than after. They tend to accumulate their gold a little bit before spending them. That's a good reason to hurry the first luxury hooked.

And, people, if you start with cow and hill don't be afraid to use the hill as soon as you hit 2 . You better get 240 gold 6 turns earlier and have 3 than missing the AI stack of gold and get a gpt deal with a little lump sum of gold with 4 .

Play a lot of starts. Compare runs. Place your best bets and see the difference.

i can't agree with this. ive recently been playing a lot of japan on deity.and immortal. i can tell you not once in my last 20 starts has any of the AI i've met held more than 150g in the first 25 turns. because of that i'll delay my first lux hook-up til around t40 or later so i can get something close to 200+1gpt for it. the obvious exceptions are good mining starts (salt) or free tech ruins but for everything else i never get a full price til around t80 or later. this is on standard everything, pangea.

 

[Tabarnak]

i can't agree with this. ive recently been playing a lot of japan on deity.and immortal. i can tell you not once in my last 20 starts has any of the AI i've met held more than 150g in the first 25 turns. because of that i'll delay my first lux hook-up til around t40 or later so i can get something close to 200+1gpt for it. the obvious exceptions are good mining starts (salt) or free tech ruins but for everything else i never get a full price til around t80 or later. this is on standard everything, pangea.

I exagerated a bit but your odds are still good if you discover many AIs early. Try to start with 2 scouts if you play pangea.

 

[Sabertooth]

Posting from work during my break, so I only have time for a quick reply, but my initial response is:

1) So, is this strategy contingent on being able to settle on a hill, or having access to a stone or cow tile? I very seldom get either of the latter, and I might have reasons for not wanting to do the former.

2) Even if we can get a worker out by turn 20, we still have the problem that we can't work a luxury until turn 30 or so, at the earliest (unless we happen to have silver, gold, or gems available).

4) Even if we can pop a worker early and develop a sellable resource by, say, turn 30, none of the AIs have the cash on hand to finance an immediate settler purchase, and in addition, there's no feasible way I can see to produce everything in the capital that the OP says I should have produced.

5) If we push back the time table by even 10 turns, and especially by say 15, it suddenly becomes much less optimal.

3) Am I the ditziest Civ V bimbo in history? I can't be the only person who has this problem, yet this thread is full of nothing but people claiming they've become the masters of Civ using it!

 

[dpunk]

It's been said before in the thread but I suppose I'll mention it again because it applies to sabertooth's post. I often find it much easier to go 3 city tradition than 4 city unless I have lots of room and lots of luxury available.

 

[Tabarnak]

It's been said before in the thread but I suppose I'll mention it again because it applies to sabertooth's post. I often find it much easier to go 3 city tradition than 4 city unless I have lots of room and lots of luxury available.

First, Tab's guide was written before the patch that caused the AI to spend its gold more liberally, so there is less gold on the map, slowing this strategy down and pushing back specific time markers for lux sales and settler buying

This. I just didn't update the thread. Most players were awared from the last patch but since a couple of weeks some new players are a bit lost because of that.

Starting with 3 cities is more viable. Rush buy 1 settler and hard build the other. Build a 4th city after the NC and let him grow very fast thanks to the Tradition finisher. He should be large enough to put a university 30 turns later.

 

[Sabertooth]

So I decided to try to replay my start and see if I could hone it a bit more. After growing to size 2, I let my capital work a wooded plains truffel hill, which slowed my growth considerably but speeded my worker production. I also beelined calendar directly, rather than detouring through AH. This enabled me to produce my first worker by turn 25, and start working to develop my cotton tile immediately (having finished calendar one turn prior). At turn 30 I was able to sell my cotton for full price to the Ottomans. So at least that much was done -- successfully selling a resource and making enough to buy a settler, and all by turn 30. I was a solid 10 turns ahead of my previous attempt, but of course that was thanks to me already knowing a lot of what was coming my way.

It was all in vain, however. Before I could move my settler two tiles I discovered that the Ottomans had settled not one, but two cities (!) directly around me completely blocking my way forward and stealing the luxuries I had hoped to use to continue my development, leaving me with a sliver of seacoast to my east and a vast, luxury-free jungle at least six tiles deep to my south.

So I gave up in frustration. Again. Like I said, I can't get this strategy to work at all.

With regard to the patch: after trying unsuccessfully a number of times, I began to suspect a patch might have done something to change the strategy a bit. But this thread is 27 pages long and I haven't gone through every single post. I did go through a number of pages a bit at random, trying to see if there had been any discussion of how a patch might have affected things, but I never found any mention of it. I still assumed this was the case; but even with the patch, it apparently works.

For other people, anyway.