[RD] Trans Genocide

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If i said Estonians don't exist and are in fact mentally ill, delusional russians and then went on to treat you like one im denying you your basic humanity and you would conceptually understand that, so why the confusion wrt to trans people?

Nevermind that society as a whole constantly tells trans people that we are inherently wrong and delusional
 
cis people really just do not give a ****, do they?

Desperately trying to hide how they want us gone through increasingly ridiculous euphemisms

I was going to reply, but unfortunately I was told I didn't give a ****.
At the same time as not giving a **** I also want trans people gone through increasingly ridiculous euphemisms.
Which would imply me giving a ****.

Oh well, that's me told off. And I also guess I'm sorry?
 
I was going to reply, but unfortunately I was told I didn't give a ****.
At the same time as not giving a **** I also want trans people gone through increasingly ridiculous euphemisms.
Which would imply me giving a ****.

Oh well, that's me told off. And I also guess I'm sorry?

Ok
 
Not feeling human is certainly horrible. While obviously no one should attempt to make you feel non-human, there is also the question regarding whether the enemy is really in general "cis people" or a few specific individuals in one's life. Most people have their own serious and persistent problems, which only they deal with.

Re Ziggy's post: apart from other problems with such a statement, if one actually thinks that "all cis people are" anything, they are just deluded. There's no collective, nor unconscious collective of cis. Similar to thinking "all americans are" something, only worse due to size of the 'group'.
 
If i said Estonians don't exist and are in fact mentally ill, delusional russians and then went on to treat you like one im denying you your basic humanity and you would conceptually understand that, so why the confusion wrt to trans people?

Nevermind that society as a whole constantly tells trans people that we are inherently wrong and delusional
Er... no. Saying Estonians are just Russians would be wrong in many ways, but I would not call that denial of humanity.
However we curse Russians these days, they are still (obviously) human.

As for "ill"... I would not myself use that word. But you ARE arguing that you are in dire need of potentially life-saving medical treatment(s), are you not?
 
if one actually thinks that "all cis people are" anything, they are just deluded
I am beginning to suspect that as a cis person I may be unable to really understand gender dysphoria and related suicidal feelings.

If you woke up in a female body tomorrow, would you want to kill yourself?
 
I am beginning to suspect that as a cis person I may be unable to really understand gender dysphoria and related suicidal feelings.

If you woke up in a female body tomorrow, would you want to kill yourself?

I think that none of us is really just cis or trans, but in a continuum, which manifests in many ways. Ultimately, it is entirely individual.
Personally I find various secondary sexual traits typically attributed to females, as good in the male body too. After all, that is the case of greek gods of beauty, like Apollo ;)

But yes, I have no sense of wishing to have female genitals (nor breasts). That said, not all trans (obviously here speaking about assigned male, identifying as female) wish to have genitals of the other biological type, and I suppose a few don't want to have female-type breasts either.
 
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I was going to reply, but unfortunately I was told I didn't give a ****.
At the same time as not giving a **** I also want trans people gone through increasingly ridiculous euphemisms.
Which would imply me giving a ****.

Oh well, that's me told off. And I also guess I'm sorry?
Er... no. Saying Estonians are just Russians would be wrong in many ways, but I would not call that denial of humanity.
However we curse Russians these days, they are still (obviously) human.

As for "ill"... I would not myself use that word. But you ARE arguing that you are in dire need of potentially life-saving medical treatment(s), are you not?
I dunno, given Ziggy's post here, I feel that the Ukraine war thread has a lot of examples of incendiary generalisations that are deemed acceptable in-context.

Why is it that people only ever seem to object when they themselves are on the receiving end? @Ziggy Stardust.

EDIT

This reads like a leading question, so I'll lay out the general point in the hope it raises some kind of common ground. People are always going to identify more with something they are affected by than something they are not. It's basically a truism. However, Ziggy's post here is a great foil to your claim, Yeekim, because he's taken a generalisation on the Internet as a personal insult (or at least, pretext to sarcastically not engage in good faith with the thread contents).

His post is ironic not least because he is smart enough to understand the nuance and is therefore choosing not to, but because it demonstrates the immediate defensive reaction from a very mild generalisation (that itself stemmed from another poster in the first place). Meanwhile we have multiple pieces of news laying out what trans folk are facing in the US (nevermind elsewhere), and that pain is apparently made irrelevant in face of said generalisation. Whatever Ziggy is feeling is made (by his post) to be more important.

But what does this have to do with the denial of humanity? Because we're discussing life-threatening events affecting a minority, and an argument to genocide on top of that, and Ziggy's response is to say "but my feelings". So you saying "I would not call that a denial of humanity" is all good and well insofar of your own personal opinion, but you're not putting yourself in others' shoes. You're not even thinking about a context where you would consider your humanity denied. Cloud is trying to find an apt comparison, but the reality is you haven't gone through it, so it's hard for you to picture the scenario.

It's also a bit of a semantic / philosophical tangent that's ultimately irrelevant (sorry to nip that in the bud upfront, but I will explain). Saying someone isn't who they say they are is a denial of them as a person. It denies them their existence. Their humanity. It doesn't literally mean "you are not a human". That's not the point, right?

Does any of that help explain the context?
 
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I dunno, given Ziggy's post here, I feel that the Ukraine war thread has a lot of examples of incendiary generalisations that are deemed acceptable in-context.

Why is it that people only ever seem to object when they themselves are on the receiving end? @Ziggy Stardust.
Given my post, the Ukraine war thread has a lot of examples of incendiary generalisations that are deemed acceptable in-context?

Not sure I can connect those dots.
 
Given my post, the Ukraine war thread has a lot of examples of incendiary generalisations that are deemed acceptable in-context?

Not sure I can connect those dots.
I updated my post in light of your breakdown at feeling targeted by a generalisation that I'm pretty sure you can work out wasn't aimed as you personally. Generalisations I see all the time aimed at other demographics in other threads (the Ukraine one is just an easy one, given your involvement).

Like, the issue isn't generalisations, because everybody uses them from time to time. The problem isn't uncharitable generalisations, because again, they're used as well. The problem here is you reacting to something you felt targeted by (and the post you chose to make, but I'm sure you thought it was raising a valid point).
 
Er... no. Saying Estonians are just Russians would be wrong in many ways, but I would not call that denial of humanity.
However we curse Russians these days, they are still (obviously) human.

As for "ill"... I would not myself use that word. But you ARE arguing that you are in dire need of potentially life-saving medical treatment(s), are you not?
"You are not an Estonian, they do not exist in reality, you were born and will die a Russian and nothing you say will change that "

Hrt is provably known to assist trans people with dysphoria, taking them off it is akin to removing the medication of a depressed person vulnerable to suicide.
 
I updated my post in light of your breakdown at feeling targeted by a generalisation that I'm pretty sure you can work out wasn't aimed as you personally.
Holy hand grenade, that's some update. Will read it later, but just to clarify ....

Lets ease up on the breakdown at feeling targeted, and call it a deadpan comment. I did not try to convey indignity or anything like that.
Reading the OP I thought, "that's terrible". But luckily at the end of that page, I was informed I don't give a ****.

Which was a relief. One less thing to worry about.

edit: skimming the update:
Ziggy's response is to say "but my feelings"

That wasn't my response. And I'm afraid you misread the tone of that post.
 
I am beginning to suspect that as a cis person I may be unable to really understand gender dysphoria and related suicidal feelings.

If you woke up in a female body tomorrow, would you want to kill yourself?

Have yourself forget that you were ever a man, but left with a feeling that there's something wrong with you and you don't know why and at the same time feeling some kind of relief whenever you encounter something that can make you feel like a man and again you don't know why. Then you find out that you are a man and now all you can see is how you don't appear or sound like a man and you feel powerless to do anything about it.

It's a simplification but that's kind of like what gender dysphoria feels like.
 
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Holy hand grenade, that's some update. Will read it later, but just to clarify ....

Lets ease up on the breakdown at feeling targeted, and call it a deadpan comment. I did not try to convey indignity or anything like that.
Reading the OP I thought, "that's terrible". But luckily at the end of that page, I was informed I don't give a ****.

Which was a relief. One less thing to worry about.
You were? Specifically? Informed? Or are you taking a generalisation to heart to illustrate some other unspoken point?
 
You were? Specifically? Informed? Or are you taking a generalisation to heart to illustrate some other unspoken point?
You don't see any merit in that "generalisation" either. False generalisations often aren't different from simple bigotry, if they express a deeply held and false opinion against an entire group (trans, cis, any other large group).
 
Ok, I did read it after all, since what I skimmed did not bode well.
However, Ziggy's post here is a great foil to your claim, Yeekim, because he's taken a generalisation on the Internet as a personal insult
No I wasn't.
Because we're discussing life-threatening events affecting a minority, and an argument to genocide on top of that, and Ziggy's response is to say "but my feelings".
No it wasn't.

Whatever point you're trying to make to Yeekim, you should do it without attributing all kinds of stuff to me, or use me as an example :)


You were? Specifically? Informed? Or are you taking a generalisation to heart to illustrate some other unspoken point?
I was what? Thinking that treatment that reduces suicidal tendencies being removed from Medicaid was terrible? Yeah.
I'd rather people don't have suicidal feelings.

No idea what "Specifically? Informed?" and the rest is supposed to mean.
 
I think what changes a lot of the conversation is that in the Florida case it is the state removing supports from the citizenry, a series of supports that are going to be vital to the well-being of a reasonable portion of the population under discussion. In all of our heads, sanctions are a different thing from removing supports, despite the victim not really being able to tell the difference.

We touch upon some of the pushback that the idea that it is genocide when we talk about suicide being "voluntary". What will have trouble piercing people's minds is (to them) the idea that the therapy itself seems to be "voluntary", a treatment designed to make their life easier rather than life-saving. We all have trouble separating 'lifestyle choices' from 'personal necessity', depending on context and so what might be happening here is people are subconsciously mistaking one for the other. People can't figure out that 'needs' are being denied, not 'wants'.

Obviously, there will be a spread of efficacy for these treatments. As the number of visibly trans people increase, we will all know people who benefited or didn't seem to benefit from the interventions. And then, cognitive bias in personal storytelling will kick in. And the science is terrifically young, and underfunded, so the discussions will be brutal.

If people could, I would like to test how we're using the word genocide here. Would we say that the Taliban are currently similarly genociding Afghanistan women?

The term doesn't require that we focus on due to biological factors, also remember, we've decided that you can genocide a religion.
 
You don't see any merit in that "generalisation" either. False generalisations often aren't different from simple bigotry, if they express a deeply held and false opinion against an entire group (trans, cis, any other large group).
It was a response to a different context, to drag it up and remove it from that context is purely bad faith, regardless of whatever other subjects I may agree with him on. I don't hold any particular animousity, I'm just trying to understand why he did what he did. Or make him understand, I dunno. I'll likely abandon it soon because it doesn't seem like it's helping.

No I wasn't.
Yes you were. You said you were "told off" and that you "guess you're sorry". That's a pity approach.
No it wasn't.
Yes you were. See above.
No idea what "Specifically? Informed?" and the rest is supposed to mean.
You claimed that you were informed that you don't give a proverbial (sorry, old habits die hard). I asked you how you were informed, as the person you were quoting wasn't even replying to you in the first place. You were taking a generalisation in a discussion (and possibly thread) not even involving you, to heart. Or at least, that's the picture you're painting by claiming you, personally, were informed, that you don't give a toss.
 
We’re referred to as a contagion. Republican governors want the death penalty for doctors who prescribe gender affirming treatment to trans youth. Florida wants to block any transition from happening, even “social transition.” Fox News and the right wing rags are running regular stories about how we’re seducing and raping children, and that we need to be stopped before we come for yours. Fascist paramilitaries are regularly vandalizing, invading, and assaulting queer spaces. I mean they refer to us as “the trans question,” for god’s sake.

This is a completely uncontroversial matter among trans circles. We all understand what is going on. Right now the conversation is about lining up hookups for diy meds and planning exit strategies to flee the country if the need arises. We have moved on from “is a genocide is happening,” to “what do we do when they start trying to force-detransition us or put us in camps.” We are one Republican White House + Congress from things getting really really really bad for us*

NB: as opposed to what they are now, which is merely really bad.
You forgot one option, which I'm encountering in conversation a bit more lately:

20210602_190304.jpg
 
Yes you were.

Yes you were.
When it concerns my feeling's I'm pretty sure I'm a better source for determining those feelings. It's fine you don't believe me because you'd rather like to make some point, but that's your problem.
In fact, I'm more ticked off by your determination to shove some sentiment in my shoes, then I was at the generalisation I made a deadpan comment towards.

Since this is getting very personal indeed, I trust you will drop this now. Not only so I don't have to continue to correct it, but also because it derails an RD thread.
 
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