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Traps and Land Mines

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by mica8911, Dec 13, 2009.

  1. mica8911

    mica8911 Warlord

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    I think this would be a cool addition to civ. Having traps that you could build in the city and then move them onto a tile and then activate it. When an enemy unit arrives on that tile it would have a % of doing damage to it much like an air strike or siege damage. Maybe a cap of 5 units would get hit and different terrain could effect the % of it being triggered.

    What do you guys think?
     
  2. tom123

    tom123 Warlord

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    I'm not so sure.
    Given the scale of the game, I don't really think it would work.
     
  3. davelisowski

    davelisowski Spartan

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    maybe it could be an offensive tactic for a spy. they could set a trap for a certain % of damage on a tile with enemy units.

    or instead of an offensive tactic for a spy, it could be a different unit (special agent or something that acts like a spy but in your own territory).

    it would consume espionage points against whichever civ you are targeting on that tile. the % and damage would have to be capped like air units and siege units are (for balancing).
     
  4. Baldyr

    Baldyr "Hit It"

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    Another idea would be to have some sort of special forces units represented in the game. It would be an invisible unit that could fortify right in the path of the advancing enemy. One of its purposes could be to make a surprise attack (ambush), targeting a random unit in the stack (the one in the lead, so to speak) trying to enter the tile it currently occupies.

    This would practically destroy the target (usually a infantry type unit, rather than say artillery) and the special ops unit would retreat to another tile. There would of course be a chance of the ambush going wrong and the special ops unit being destroyed instead, or it not managing to retreat (percentage for success, like mounted units).

    These covert units could be spotted by other special ops units, or maybe units with the Commando promotion. Then the ambush would be ruined and the unit forced to defend itself as any other unit. (It could still retreat in the face of defeat, though. Preferably onto a tile occupied by strong defensive units.)

    The special ops unit could have other functions also.
     
  5. mica8911

    mica8911 Warlord

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    Hmm, special ops. I like. Maybe units in the same tile as a special ops unit get a free promotion of sorts as long as they remain on the same tile and alive. Or perhaps give negative attributes to opposing forces.

    I don't know it all sounds cool to get the game mechanics to fit more into warfare as we know it but it might be too tedious. But then again it is only just another unit I'm sure it can be done.

    But traps, come on, they have been around since the beginning of war and this game lends itself to trap making with the tiles spread out the way they are.

    I would love to see the random events that would be attached to traps. A cow just triggered a trap and then you lose the resource lol.
     
  6. ori

    ori Repair Guy Super Moderator

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  7. Argetnyx

    Argetnyx Emperor

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    unofficial stamp: TOO TACTICAL

    its too small scale to be realistic, good idea though...
     
  8. f35acepilot

    f35acepilot Needs to post more

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    A problem with this is that sneaky players could just take their weakest unit in the stack and move them to the tile to "check" for traps, and then the rest of the stack would just follow him if there wasn't anything.
     
  9. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    At first I thought this would be too tactical (and I still think it probably would be), but this is a lot like the Ambush idea that I like. However, I think the critical difference between the two (with this being too tactical and the other one not, IMO) is that it is essentially introducing a whole new element into the game, rather than just adding one possible promotion that would have limited use.
     
  10. Takhisis

    Takhisis Free Hong Kong

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    As Argetnyx says, it's too tactical for civ. However, you could set it up as something close to civ III's defensive bombardment, except it would be activated whenever anyone tried to walk into the tile, but one problem would be that, if there were more than one mine on the same tile, they could send in a suicide unit to detonate all of those mines together, since obviously a same tile can't be occupied by two different civs.
     
  11. trickofthehand

    trickofthehand Prince

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    Land mines have played a gargantuan role in shaping conflicts, even national borders. To say that they are too tactical for civ is to say that "bombers are pointless cuz we can bombard with artillery".

    Civilization is a human civilization emulation, therefore land and even sea mines MUST be included at some point, hopefully Civ 5. The impact that mines have had in the real world is just mind boggling, as is the claim that they're use is simply too tactical and shouldn't be included. These aren't trivial flavor units we're talking about.

    My opinion is to simply have minefields slow enemy units down to a maximum of 1 movement per turn and use up all remaining movement points (exception for helicopter units), and while executing a movement into a mine field the unit suffers a % damage amount. The damage inflicted could degrade over time as more units enter the field, until it is replenished with an engineer or mine layer for ocean squares. Furthermore, any unit defending or attacking from a minefield should suffer combat penalties. Friendly units would be immune as they would obviously know the layout of the field.

    This feature would add a whole new layer of strategy and be extremely useful. You could funnel enemy forces thru a certain avenue of approach where you have defenses such as forts or units on hills stationed (a Maginot line if you will), slow down invaders or protect/deny vital resources.
     
  12. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    So I suppose if we have land mines, we would also have minesweepers (land-based and ships)? Isn't this an unnecessary expansion of the units in the game? Wouldn't be assumed that as part a normal unit, there would be some sort of anti-mine capability? How would this be represented?
     
  13. trickofthehand

    trickofthehand Prince

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    Yes, Minesweepers would be included in the game. Ever since the advent of mines there have been military units dedicated to the creation and elimination of minefields. An Engineer unit could constitute the land requirement, as well as take on multiple other tasks such as construct firebases/fortifications that add a small bonus to defense and can be built relatively quickly and inside enemy territory; and convert roads to be usable by friendly units in hostile terrain. That's always been a pet peeve of mine, why wouldn't my units be able to use enemy roads? Ofcourse I realize that it is a required mechanic for a game such as civ, however there comes a point where that mechanic needs to be modified. An engineer unit could 'work' an enemy road and allow movement on it, in the same timespan (or slightly longer) that a worker can build a normal road.

    If no engineers are available, an artillery barrage could degrade the minefield much like city defenses. This works in the real world.

    A sea variant would include a surface mine laying ship, which in modern ages can be outfitted with cruise missiles to give it some defensive firepower (simply a thought). Submarines could even fill the role as they have in the real world. Perhaps you could simply build a mine package and load it onto a Destroyer or Sub. A special promotion could be available for Destroyers which would allow you to specialize a few in the removal and deployment of minefields, and thus there would be no need for a new sea unit. Also a bombardment from naval units could degrade the oceanic minefield much as it would on land.

    Lastly air deployed mines are also an option, as both sea and land fields have been created in this manner.

    The key would be to make every unit NOT able to clear a minefield, for obvious reasons. The reality is that mines are cheap, easy to use and quickly deployed. They also require expensive countermeasures in the forms of specialized units (or a massive concentration of firepower) which is exactly what makes them so effective. They are on par with the creation of artillery, the rifle and the advent of combined arms warfare in the influence they have had on human conflict. To have them not represented in Civilization is unacceptable.
     
  14. CivMyWay

    CivMyWay Warlord

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    I have always liked the ideas of "deploy mine field". (No traps earlier in the game - given the size of tile, not worth it). However to me the gold with the mine field is that you can use it to be very defensive player, and minefields that are left after a war are a significant problem. (e.g. say 0 resources from mined field, and 2x movement cost even for friendly units). It gives another option when planning for war.
     
  15. trickofthehand

    trickofthehand Prince

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    Agreed. Even friendly mine fields can be treacherous, and no civilians in their right mind are going to tend elephant herds in the middle of a mine field. This would be the trade-off. Security and stand-off ability in exchange for the loss of the tile.

    Also traps would be very silly.
     
  16. moscaverde

    moscaverde Prince

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    Started to like this idea, maybe the minefield could be a terrain 'improvement', destroying all other improvements in the tile. Minesweepers could be a promotion.
     
  17. Baldyr

    Baldyr "Hit It"

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    I also am beginning to see the potential here.

    The "minefield" could be veritable warzone of trenches, barbed wire and bunkers, too (graphics wise, I mean). It would give a better defensive bonus than a Fort, but you wouldn't be able to work it, at all. Also, all enemy units that enter the "warzone" will take damage. The fortifications and minefields (and whatever) will thus need to be pillaged for enemy units to pass without harm, slowing the invasion (one unit will have to stay behind because of the pillage action). Especially if there are layers of these improvements, tile after another.
     
  18. Takhisis

    Takhisis Free Hong Kong

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    If you're including land mines, then you've gotta be able to raze the terrain, burn the crops, etc. maybe a 2-turn penalty on production?
     
  19. Baldyr

    Baldyr "Hit It"

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    Or you make the Minefield improvement improvable, sorta like Cottages -> Towns. Once the Rampart improvement is done, your Workers can improve it further into Trenches (assuming you have the required tech, like Railroad). This can in turn be improved into Bunkers (with, say, Electricity) and further into Minefield (with Assembly Line?). Every improvement would have +25% higher defensive bonus so that Minefield has a whopping +100% defensive bonus! This would however take some time and work to prepare, and it wouldn't be as easy to dismantle - for you or for the enemy, as the full Minefield would take four actions to pillage completely.

    Also, only the full Minefield version would give damage to enemy units that occupy it, and it could require some Tech (like Electricity) or promotion (like Minesweeper) to pillage. Or, it would cause massive damage on the unit that clears the minefield, but I suppose that would just become the job for obsolete Chariots or some exploit like that...:rolleyes:
     
  20. trickofthehand

    trickofthehand Prince

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    I think this is losing focus and just turning into another Fort. We already have that. Minefields should simply be what they are, minefields. They are not defensive fortifications and friendly units shouldn't receive a bonus to defense for standing on them. Rather I think friendly units should also have their movement speed slowed if they enter, and the penalty to attack and defense should apply if they get caught trying to attack into a minefield or defending while standing on a minefield.

    Minefields need to slow enemy units that enter them and cause damage for each turn a unit is in a minefield. As more units pass thru them they degrade, causing less damage, until finally it is 'exhausted'. You can use a ranged artillery or ship bombardment (like in DCM) or air strikes to degrade the quality of the minefield.

    The problem is that in Civ 4 there is not much use for minefields as the map is too big in scope. Slowing an attacking force down for 1 turn isn't going to do much. The only way minefields would work is if the terrain itself is larger and there is more room between cities. Right now cities are built with most of them sharing tiles. So while I hope to see mines introduced in Civ 5, they have no room in Civ 4. Except for maybe sea mines.
     

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