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Tribal Council Faction

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Demo Game IV: Citizens' started by DaveShack, Feb 27, 2008.

  1. Seidrik_The_Gray

    Seidrik_The_Gray Seidrik The Gray

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  2. fed1943

    fed1943 Emperor

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    Lisbon
    Sorry, but can you please email me the password?

    fed1943 ta hotmail tod com

    Best regards,
     
  3. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    If you click on the login link from the index page, it has a "forgot password" link. Or you might need to check with Croxis to see if he can reset it.
     
  4. Vandal Warlord

    Vandal Warlord Nazgûl

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    I am here for one thing and one thing only, rebellion. The rebelllion has been triggered and I welcome everyone to assist in removing the Triad from power!
     
  5. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    Now that the attempt is started, the best approach is to vote in favor and start gathering ourselves for an election should the vote go against the Triad.
     
  6. vra379971

    vra379971 Deity

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    We need to make sure people vote though.
     
  7. Vandal Warlord

    Vandal Warlord Nazgûl

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    Seeing as we are working together on this one I suggest we do everything we can!If the rebellion fails The Triad will have an oppertunity to solidify itself!
     
  8. Seidrik_The_Gray

    Seidrik_The_Gray Seidrik The Gray

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    1) Process questions:
    I think that a vote of confidence should be held at the mid-point of every month long term to determine whether a rebellion occurs or not.
    2) Active roster:
    How many people do we have active still in our faction that could vote?
    3) Should this action succeed, I think we will need to seriously work on our image for a successful election.
     
  9. glenmetz

    glenmetz Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2006
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    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    I have not posted in a while, but I have voted. I like your ideas as well about a mid-term vote of confidence.
     
  10. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    I think the rebellion covers a no-confidence vote. A "state of the DG" poll would be helpful for the Prime Faction to see how they're doing, and what can be changed. It's a shame that the Tribal Faction had to step up, and show our "ruling overlords" that they had problems.

    We do need to work on our image, but it's rather difficult with the Triad clearly stating that they only care about internal discussions and strategies. How does one participate when not everything is done in the open? The comments by our members in the few strategy threads is extremely helpful, however. When the new Prime Faction election is held, we'll be able to hold our heads high, and point to our rules that reflect our consistent policy of inclusion and planning. We can point to our first proposal, which is very opposite of what the Triad did. I suspect that we'll see competing proposals very similar to ours, and responding to our comments about the Triad failures.

    I think we can take our first proposal, and revamp sections of it to improve it and make sure it reflects our view and the needs of all citizens.

    -- Ravensfire
     
  11. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    I have some ideas for a revised proposal. Maybe some private strategizing would be a good idea.
     
  12. Duke Blackstone

    Duke Blackstone John Marchman

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    Dallas
    (yawn) Alliance Forum Posted... the Freedom Coalition. Some1 else take it over now im going to sleep. Post on the Forum and tell me what you think and what needs to change
     
  13. Seidrik_The_Gray

    Seidrik_The_Gray Seidrik The Gray

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    To all of my friends and respected colleagues in Tribal Faction; I have enjoyed my time with you. I now feel that I can be more effective to this community with a new faction that I am now forming. I wish you all the best, and I look forward to one day possibly working with the Tribal Faction in the future as we all work to build a better Aretan society.

    Chin up friends, the Sun also rises :)
     
  14. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    Sounds like you've got a great idea and are off to a good start! Good luck!

    -- Ravensfire
     
  15. BCLG100

    BCLG100 Music Master

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    Lahndan
    If i sign up here do i
    A) Have to actually role play to any extent?
    B) regularly visit the croxis site? its not that i don't want too just i know i'll forget!

    I am contemplating signing up to be a faction because right now im just the voice that complains after an election but hasn't voted.
     
  16. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    No role play is required of anyone. The organization we have is there to feature role play so that it doesn't get drowned in number crunching :bts: stuff, but it's certainly not a requirement.

    The croxis site doesn't get much traffic from this faction. I think we have maybe 12 total posts on the whole faction forum. In my opinion, the only reason we have one is for the minimal benefit it could provide vs. sending a bunch of PMs, if more people bothered to go there.
     
  17. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    I think the community needs this type of revitalization, best of luck!
     
  18. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    I think a little clearing of the air is needed with respect to "democracy" and its place in ancient societies. Many people in the DG have objected to the idea of "despots" consulting the people, claiming that we should wait until representation before we start to add voting, or opinion polls, or other forms of citizen input. This seems to be based on the idea that in ancient times, the leader could do whatever he wanted to without repurcussions. It is a popular belief, and on the surface it seems to make sense, but if you consider that "history" concerns primarily the things which stand out to the historian, it becomes clear that despots did not in fact rule with an iron fist, but by motivating their people.

    What's that, you ask, rule by motivation? Yes I say, few if any of the great historical works that we admire today were accomplished through the mere whim of despots. How could an individual wake up one day and say to 10,000 men "pick up your spears and follow me to war" on just a whim, without motivation? No, ancient leaders did not in fact wake up and become the rulers of their people. They had to earn the respect of the people who followed them, by proving themselves in battle or showing themselves to be just. Historians wrote about the good leaders -- the ones who did not get their people to follow don't even get a postscript, except sometimes to note their deaths as victims of the leaders who did have followers.

    To assume that in the DG a leader of a faction should be able to just take over supreme control of the game is a fallacy based on misunderstanding of history. True leaders gain their positions by consent of their followers. They obtain that consent by listening and acting when the people need them. They consult their advisors and act in the people's best interests. When they want to pursue a course of action, they win the people over by oratory and gauge their support by the size of their audience.

    This is voting, in practice if not in name. How do we, in the demogame, know how many people support our ideas? What mechanism can tell us if we are giving a speech to a deserted clearing, or if our people are present and giving us thunderous applause? We cannot rely on comments alone to tell if the people like an idea, because no more than half of them say anything. We cannot rely on the most vocal people to tell us what the general population wants. How then can we do what historical despots did? By using the mechanism the forum provides. We need to use polls to find out if our actions are accepted by the people.

    I am certain that there will be people who will say, but that's democracy and we're role playing despotism. But it is not, and there is a key verifiable difference between the two. The difference between a despot who listens to the people and a democracy is the absence or presence of law requiring the vote to be obeyed. A despot is not required to follow the people's wishes, where a democratic leader is required to do so.

    Some will say, but we changed this democracy game to have less polling because there was too much polling in previous games. They are assuming that because I assert that some polling is necessary, that I think that everything should be polled. Our historical reference the despot did not bother to seek the people's opinion on many things. On many other things he didn't bother to even get involved. It is fair to say that Alexander didn't pay any attention to whether his people preferred to live in the forest and produce things, or live in the fields and grow crops. He cared if there was enough food, but not which people produced it. Similarly, the despot of the demogame should not be concerned with tile allocations, unit movements, and other local or minor issues. The demogame's despots should focus on key issues of the day, like direction of expansion, war and peace, and other strategic planning issues. And they need to approach the big picture items from the point of view of motivating the people. They should formulate plans and ask the people if they approve. They should not fear going forward with a plan without the people's consent (aside from possibly losing the next prime faction election), but they should be interested in whether the people support the plan.

    All role playing aside, this is a cooperative venture. A select few should not assume that their vision is shared by the people. The price we all pay if those in power fail to satisfy the needs of the people is the same fate ancient despots would face if they failed their people. An ancient leader without the support of his people might find himself in a deserted village, or alone on the battlefield after his "followers" have surrendered or even joined the enemy. If we don't respond to our friends and neighbors they will vote us out, with their feet as they walk away from the game never to return.

    So yes, I support a little polling in this game. Poll the big stuff like high level strategy, tech path, and other long-reaching decisions. We should not give our leaders a free run for a month just because they win the prime faction election, and we should not give them a free pass on total control over the game, lest we find at the end of the month a game that we don't feel like playing any more.
     
  19. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    I actually agree on polling technologies and war declarations, since that was what happened historically. Despots could for example not dictate innovations etc. (Sorry, this was not a threadjack, but voicing support for polling this).
     
  20. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    No problem, and thanks for the comment!
     

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