Troglodytes and Troglobites (from Very Many Questions XXXII)

[GoodSarmatian]

Such a civilization might also have mating cycles.

Ah, but what's that based on ?
Mostly food availability, I think.
Which brings us back to seasons/temperature.

 

[Mouthwash]

Drips off a stalactite?

It's like a natural hourglass.

No.

If you're hypothesising about a culture that has no need for unified sleep patterns, a universal growing season and no external inputs whatsoever, it sounds like you're trying to cut away any possible parallels for no very good reason.

I want my worldbuilding to feel genuinely alien.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Suit yourself. It's the correct answer to your quandary.

 

[Mouthwash]

Stalactites grow, there's no single unifying measure of time for all stalactites, and even if there was, no natural dripping could be timed perfectly. The water inflow isn't going to stay exactly the same, either.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Stalactites grow,

Over millenia! We have to add leap-seconds every now and again and it hasn't prevented development of a calendar based on sun and moon.

 

[Mouthwash]

Over millenia! We have to add leap-seconds every now and again and it hasn't prevented development of a calendar based on sun and moon.

I see that I'm likely wasting my breath here.

But thanks for your input.

 

[Arakhor]

I want my worldbuilding to feel genuinely alien.

Then, unless you do your job describing this culture extremely well, no one is going to relate to it.

 

[Gori the Grey]

there's no single unifying measure of time for all stalactites

No. The civilization has one particular stalactite that is their holy calendar stalactite, and people devoted to keeping the count of the drops, a whole priesthood of timekeepers.

Dude, the story practically writes itself as soon as you choose this as your calendar.

One of the priests sees it's to his personal advantage to misrepresent the number of drops that occurred on his watch. The whole civilization, utterly dependent on the accuracy of their drop-counters, gets thrown into chaos, for reasons they can't even fully understand. Our hero has to figure out what could cause such chaos. The drop-counters have such a reputation for fidelity to the drops, that as he starts the story, it's literally inconceivable to him that one could deliberately misreport the number of drops.

 

[Mouthwash]

Then, unless you do your job describing this culture extremely well, no one is going to relate to it.

China Mieville well, or George Martin well?

No. The civilization has one particular stalactite that is their calendar stalactite, and people devoted to keeping the count of the drops, a whole priesthood of timekeepers.

Dude, the story practically writes itself as soon as you choose this as your calendar.

One of the priests sees it's to his personal advantage to misrepresent the number of drops that occurred on his watch. The whole civilization, utterly dependent on the accuracy of their drop-counters, gets thrown into chaos, for reasons they can't even fully understand.

I've already decided on the whole 'periodic fantastic event' suggested by GoodSarmatian. Thank you for your input.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

No. The civilization has one particular stalactite that is their holy calendar stalactite, and people devoted to keeping the count of the drops, a whole priesthood of timekeepers.

Dude, the story practically writes itself as soon as you choose this as your calendar.

One of the priests sees it's to his personal advantage to misrepresent the number of drops that occurred on his watch. The whole civilization, utterly dependent on the accuracy of their drop-counters, gets thrown into chaos, for reasons they can't even fully understand. Our hero has to figure out what could cause such chaos.

.......I've already decided on the whole 'periodic fantastic event' suggested by GoodSarmatian. Thank you for your input.

I actually like the Sacred Stalactite better than the fantasy guff I proposed. Especially the manipulative priest part.

I might steal it for some RPG-Maker game sidequest.

 

[Gori the Grey]

It suits his bill, 'cause it's 1) alien, 2) easily comprehensible by the reader as an alien way of keeping time and 3) opens up tons of storytelling possibilities.

Not my fault he can't see that.

Glad you'll get some use out of it, at least.

 

[Mouthwash]

I actually like the Sacred Stalactite better than the fantasy guff I proposed. Especially the manipulative priest part.

I might steal it for some RPG-Maker game sidequest.

It suits his bill, 'cause it's 1) alien, 2) easily comprehensible by the reader as an alien way of keeping time and 3) opens up tons of storytelling possibilities.

Not my fault he can't see that.

Glad you'll get some use out of it, at least.

Okay, okay, fine! *chokes, gags* It isn't a bad idea!

 

[warpus]

Ah, but what's that based on ?
Mostly food availability, I think.
Which brings us back to seasons/temperature.

Why not the mating habits of the alpha dwarf?

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Why not the mating habits of the alpha dwarf?

Yeah, but what's that based on ?
It's an unusual quirk of humanity that we don't really have a mating season and we don't really kow when our females are in heat (or maybe that's just me).
Is there a biological reason for the alpha dwarf's mating habits ?
If so, why are they different from his underlings ?
If not, isn't it arbitrary ?
Do the dwarves have a secret police that goes around and knocks on doors to make sure nobody is hugging and kissing when King Dwarf isn't horny ?

 

[warpus]

Good questions.. I don't know! I'm not the one writing this sex dwarf dungeon story though. What I would do is set up a calendar system for them, but not say where it came from. It'd be a mystery

 

[Valka D'Ur]

How might an underground (dwarven, say) civilization isolated from the surface world organize their calendar/date system? I'm not talking about the means of keeping time, but how it is defined. Sick of seeing original settings like Menzoberranzan, against all logic, tracking the passage of time by days, months and years.

Of course there is no real historical data point for this. But I only need a plausible suggestion, or even better, a few of them. How can one eliminate all measures derived from surface phenomena?

After reading all the posts, I have to ask this: Does no one here play Dungeons & Dragons or read any of the reference material?

Mouthwash, every living thing is affected by cycles and rhythms. Even the heartbeat can be considered a calendar of sorts, though it would be horribly unwieldy to base a calendar on it.

Anyway, I went looking to see what information might be available courtesy of gamers who run underground campaigns and do underground worldbuilding. I have no idea if you'll find any of this useful, but here are some links to check out:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?579351-Dungeon-movement-and-Time-Tracking

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/55461/how-to-handle-time-in-dd-5e

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?689168-The-Underdark-and-the-passage-of-time

https://nerdarchy.com/worldbuilding-fantasy-calendars/

https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/18cdsr/telling_time_underground/

I realize that you're not writing a gaming module or D&D campaign, but a lot of this information can be useful as inspiration for writing prose. I may check some of this stuff out myself for my NaNoWriMo projects.

 

[schlaufuchs]

Time or quantifiable time was not particularly important for much of Western history though. For example the Greeks were not particularly interested in time keeping as a way to order the day. It made translation of Harry Potter into Ancient Greek particularly troubling. Latin wasn't too concerned with in-day time either, basically until you get the introduction of monastic life and suddenly there needed to be time-keeping to regiment prayer cycles.

That being said, if this is a society interested in internal timekeeping, segmented candles were the way it was done in monastic orders before the invention of the mechanical clock. However that raises the additional question of where they'd be getting their wax from, unless these are caverns which include subterranean species of bees.

 

[Arakhor]

Menzoberranzan is a notable D&D city, so I'm sure that Mouthwash is at least familiar with the game.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Nope, tidal forces wouldn't produce the same effect. I don't know of any cyclical subsurface phenomenon.

Tidal forces won't produce the same effects (tides) unless you have a mostly underworld spanning ocean for them to work on, but the tidal forces are still there, still the same, and still measurable with sufficiently sensitive instruments. All you need is some technological or natural "instrumentation" that has enough sensitivity. That's easier to produce if you use vastly amplified tidal forces, such as would be produced by having your only populated underground planet in a very close orbit around its primary.

By the way, thanks for the link...I love those "physics for grade schoolers" things!

 

[Birdjaguar]

.......I've already decided on the whole 'periodic fantastic event' suggested by GoodSarmatian. Thank you for your input.

Since you have already decided, how about an underground geyser like Old faithful at Yellowstone. Its regularity would be a natural for a dwarf world. Depending upon the frequency you set, its spouting would count hours, days weeks or months. All other increments would be fractions or multiples of that.