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Trojan Horse: Ninja Style

Discussion in 'Team SANCTA' started by Krill, Jun 23, 2009.

  1. IamJohn

    IamJohn (was)?

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    So why exactly are we planting another city there? Are we planning on just trying to attack the city once they bomb it, or what?
     
  2. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    Because if we don't they can plant forward (ie where the wheat city will be) and bomb that city site.

    Then we'll be in exactly the same sort of situation, but it'll be worse, because we'd have to bomb 2 cities to defend instead on 1. TKY would be virtually cut off from DT. Basically by us planting forward, we force them to bomb further away from more vulnerable places, or save the GA and not bomb if they want to risk taking out our forward city and bombing us in the face.

    Worst case, the wheat city would be a speed bump.
     
  3. IamJohn

    IamJohn (was)?

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    Alright, makes sense, I guess the thing I'm concerned about is that they'll bomb and then capture the city we're planting now, and we'll at best have just wasted a settler, at worse have made their foothold stronger.
     
  4. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    It's forcing them to either bomb further away thus protecting more important cities, or forcing them to not bomb and defacto give us time to get a counter bomb. That's the key. The settler for a GA exchange is pretty favourable to us.

    But that's worst case. I think I've gotten it down to t112 for Music. Kaz will have difficulty beating that, and that gives us a GA and Kaz, because they can't afford to go into Caste, and have the GL, will have big problems getting a GA for a counter bomb.
     
  5. IamJohn

    IamJohn (was)?

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    Alright, looks like a plan then. :)

    Thinking (dangerously) aloud (and yes, I know I've been posting about how important it is not to do this but hey, whatever): I know we can't let them have it if we have a chance at it, but what would we gain by just ignoring that route and head for other more important techs? Since we seem to be heading for CS before running for music will we have anything that *needs* to be researched that we could get to faster if we ignored music and the required prerequisites for music?
     
  6. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

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    The trouble is, if we miss music, we could lose hte war in the west.

    If we get it, it will break Kaz's back and effectively we win the war.

    The reusltant delay is 6 turns on HBR and 5 Turns for CS (T114 vs 108 and 120 vs 115, respectively)

    The bonus we now also have: Poly, Aesthetics, Litterature, Music.
     
  7. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    I'd say go for it.
     
  8. azzaman333

    azzaman333 meh

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    We won't be able to beat Kaz to Music.
     
  9. dutchfire

    dutchfire Moderator Moderator

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    Can we try to kill their city before they bomb?
     
  10. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

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    We can try(to take the city), but will fail. 2 archers in that city and we have no chance with the units we have.

    We can beat Kaz to Music....and thus doing this:

    1. A Moral vicotry, they arn't gettign music because they feel no one is even close. With this surprise attack they can't shift gears fast enough.

    2. If we don't go for music, Kaz will start as soon as we drop that new city, and then we have missed our chance

    3. We show Cav and MS that we can definetly research.

    4. It is a cool thing to do, just like hte Oracle was. This is multiplayer. Insane tactics, and thinking outside the box is required. 4 techs, 7 turns. :science: WOW!
     
  11. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    Maybe what we offer Saturn is use of our level 10 unit to start heroic epic, along with the techs.

    Literature is useful to us anyway, so either we scare them into rushing to music or we get it.

    I think it's well worth the shot.
     
  12. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

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    we definetly ofer saturn the unit!
     
  13. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Chieftain

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    I think we try to do it, ONLY, if we are confident that we won't face Cats on the Kaz front before we can counter with HA's.

    When can we get our 1st HA to the front with the detour into Music?
     
  14. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

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    approimately T120.

    We get Los on Kaz's New city T109. At that point they have 4 turns of movement to get to our city.

    WHEN we get the GA, we drop the bomb around T118. And then they are in big trouble, because then their new city is ingulfed, and they can't get units to it, as well as we can attack thier approaching units from roads etc.
     
  15. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Chieftain

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    They can build cats now!

    If I were them, and I were NOT seriously considering our offer of alliance, I would be be building/whipping cats and HA, (5 whips in 2 turns, IIRC).

    Will we be able to hold strong until T118?
     
  16. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

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    Yes. We have Longbows. one will have 5 XP and hence City defender 2.

    Also any whips has minimum 6 turns travel from their captial (HA) 12 turns (cat)
    so we can hold it no problem. That is the beauty of this new city, it keeps the pressure on them.

    We all know the best defence in Civ is offence :)
     
  17. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Chieftain

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    If we are tactically strong enough....then I am all for going for the GA!
     
  18. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

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    Ok Fantastic Chat with Saturn:
    Spoiler :

    Memphus says:
    Yo!
    plako says:
    hi. a minute
    alright
    Memphus says:
    no problem
    sooo we have quite the humdinger of a proposal for you.
    plako says:
    go ahead
    Memphus says:
    How does 4 extra techs sound over the next 7 turns?
    plako says:
    not bad
    Memphus says:
    the downside is, it delays HBR by 5 turns and CS by 5 turnss from our orinal plan
    so isntead of HBR T108 it would be T113
    and CS T118 instead of T113 as we had said before
    What happend is kaz dropped a new forward city.
    If the get Music and Bomb that city, we are cooked, they can split us and run through our empire
    however we know they are beign complacent about music because no one is close, we assume they are getting feud or machinery
    so we foudn a way to turn our empire upside down and get poly, aesthetics, literatur and music in 7 turns
    but kaz will only see us get poly, 3 turns before we get music, so they can't switch and go fast enough.
    the flip side is, if we bomb our front city, kaz is split and they will be impaired and out of the game.
    the MM behind it is kinda crazy....
    plako says:
    MM?
    Memphus says:
    micro managment
    plako says:
    alright
    Memphus says:
    we research poly next turn to within 1 beaker
    then swithc to aesthetics, for 2 turns same thing within 1 beaker
    then we get poly T108
    overlfow into aesthetics T109 (get it)
    overflow into literatur T110 (get it)
    overflow into Music T112 get it end of turn
    *edit add 1 turn to my above number*
    then T113 we can get HBR in 1 turn.
    Advantage for you guys is we have a lvl 3 unit we can gift for the HE!!!
    plako says:
    very nice of you
    Memphus says:
    we know it is asking alot
    thoughts?
    plako says:
    cunning plan. However I'm bit worried what MS is doing currently
    Memphus says:
    we are watching thier power closely... how close are they to you?
    plako says:
    I don't know exactly
    Memphus says:
    you guys shoudl definetly be expanding east towards us as that land is all saf!
    and on your western front putting up LB's on hills
    plako says:
    west doesn't look that appealing
    at least the closest parts all hills
    Memphus says:
    so i nthat 5 Turn Delay for HBR, build cats, that would kill anything MS could throw at you
    plako says:
    I guess we'll had to delay also construction?
    Memphus says:
    we don't think so
    we only need t ogo 70% next turn
    plako says:
    so you don't need gold right away
    Memphus says:
    no not next turn, or the turn after
    2 turns out, we will build weath if we need to.
    to MM it properly we stil lwant to get construction ASAP with you guys!
    plako says:
    so wemight get it. Catapults, longbows and spears might be enough
    if they are coming with War elephants
    Memphus says:
    too long of travel time!
    our boat still hasn't met them
    but it just foudn a barb city on the coast.
    so they would have to take that first?
    plako says:
    I don't understand why they arebuilding army, if they are not going to use it. Our main problem is weak production and there aren't much we can do about it
    short term
    Memphus says:
    yeah so over those 6 turns focus on gettign production up! and more cities in the east
    the other part is if we manage to beat down kaz we can provide units to you with our production! because we won't have to commit as much to the kaz war.
    not to mention it will be a huge moral blow for Kaz and Cav to see they lost music!
    kidna liek what happend to cav when we grabbed the oracle
    plako says:
    I like the idea
    I'll had to ask from the team opinion
    Memphus says:
    for sure.
    because after 2 turns we need crazy funding like 100% gold from you guys.
    but youll get a new tech every turn
    and you can even try to sell to MS or Cav for gold?
    that would help fund the effort!
    how much gold do you guys make at 100%? (so we know how many cities we need to put to wealth?)
    plako says:
    Personally I don't belive we get any trades with them.
    Memphus says:
    me either...but maybe aesthetics for 40 gold?
    plako says:
    Others in the team still belive
    at least little
    Memphus says:
    haha yeah definetly a 3 v 2....but with this blow to kaz we can make it a 2 v 2!!!
    plako says:
    Hopefully. Their new city is well protected?
    I'll had to check the gold situation
    Memphus says:
    it will have our culture on all sides
    so no reinforcements quickly
    plako says:
    but you can't take it now
    Memphus says:
    and once we take that thier empire is split in half so we can mop up
    no...we won't know until T110 if we can or not, but that coudl be too late
    we have to make major overhauls in the empire to do this.
    it is almost 2000 base beakers in 7 turns.
    running scientists building wealth working 1 food coat tiles (4 commerce)
    but we are at -87GPT in 2 turns when we go 100%
    so when you check the gold you need 10 next turn for construction
    then what % do you run the turn after that? do you need to go 100% again to get it?
    plako says:
    I'll check the gold situation and how much we need to finish construction in 4 turns
    now
    Memphus says:
    should be 3? IF you jump into the game can you send calendar over too?
    plako says:
    sure
    Memphus says:
    thks!
    plako says:
    3 yes turn has passed
    Memphus says:
    cool!
    on your last turn what % do you think you can run? (i.e. how much gold available) or can you get it in 3 now at 90%? 80%?
    plako says:
    it shows still 4 and will be 3 after I select end turn. Currently we need 100% research for these
    we need currently 11 gold formaintenance
    Memphus says:
    ahhh ok gotcha.
    so you have enough for this turn
    plako says:
    this will raise after IApetus comes "online"
    Memphus says:
    next turn we can give 10 (or 11 again)
    plako says:
    I requested it alonside calendar. 10 is enough
    now
    aminute
    Memphus says:
    cool!
    so that 10 will be what you need for next turn right?
    plako says:
    yes
    Memphus says:
    then you will need 10 more the turn after
    and then might be able to give us a little bit on your last turn (might not need 100%)
    plako says:
    *I think we need little bit more since Iapetus gets online
    Memphus says:
    ok no problem we can do that still
    plako says:
    Currently 0% is 89 gold
    Memphus says:
    perfect!
    so we can do it
    ok so you have enough for 106
    this 10 we give is for T107
    plako says:
    yes
    Memphus says:
    then T108 you need ~10 maybe a bit more
    plako says:
    ~13-15 I guess
    Memphus says:
    then T109 you might not need any because that is the turn you finish construction
    plako says:
    depends what tiles we work
    Memphus says:
    so you might have some for us but not much
    plako says:
    and can we lower slider
    Memphus says:
    and T110 you can gives us 100% gold ~89
    plako says:
    sounds right
    Memphus says:
    perfect!
    so then that happens for T110-T112 and bang it is done
    oh shoot my window closed. do you have a record of this convo? can you save it and email it me
    mattheww@price-hvac.com
    plako says:
    Personally I'm alright with this, but I'll ask from the team and sure I'll send you the discussion
    Memphus says:
    for sure!
    let us know before our turn.
    it is definetly out of the box!
    as I said we don't want to slow construction
    so you get cats (and ability to cross rivers)
    plako says:
    Anything else to check in the game before I log out
    Memphus says:
    but if we miss this we might lose to Kaz
    nope thats cool!
    plako says:
    Gambling
    but that is needed to do well
    Memphus says:
    if we get it we beat Kaz 100%!
    so can you send me the chat?
    we under this plan will also have sugar for you in 2 turns (if you need we can send our first source) if not we will have it in 5 turns from now!
    plako says:
    Because of barb problems we could use early sugar, but in 2 turns I think wemight have situaton under control and garrison back in the city
    sending you now
    Memphus says:
    cool thks!
    Memphus says:
    we can send in 2 turns if you need!
    Memphus says:
    also where do you want that chariot to go?
    plako says:
    Rhea is central place of course you could also continue towards west. There is Dione our most western city
    Memphus says:
    Ok how about we go west and scout for MS advancing?
    plako says:
    that sounds ok too
    Memphus says:
    if we see troops we can tip you off to what they are?
    plako says:
    We can't afford sending scout yet
    Memphus says:
    so we will do it!
    Memphus says:
    and cover any path that MS woudl send units in from!
    plako says:
    To get Dione follow the road first to north towards Saturn
    Memphus says:
    we also know you are safe in the sea because of our galley
    Memphus says:
    ok cool
    plako says:
    good to know
    Memphus says:
    shoot that email isn't here yet I wanted to respond with a nice chart for you! (with turns techs and gold transfers
    plako says:
    strange I sent it couple of minutes ago
    Memphus says:
    got it just now
    plako says:
    gmail
    Memphus says:
    replied.
    Memphus says:
    thanks very much for jumping online.
    Memphus says:
    please let me know what your team says! we sure hope they accept!
    plako says:
    email arrived. Thank you for keeping us informed
    plako says:
    bye



    The Path is As Follows below (as soon as they agree)
    Spoiler :


     
  19. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

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    Ok here is exactly how the next 4 turns play out:

    T109:
    Spoiler :
    Saturn gifts us +94 :gold: we have 3 :gold: Total = +97 :gold:
    FC and CK need to build wealth.
    FC runs no scientists
    JD runs no scientists
    Is runs 2 scientists and max growth otherwise.
    We discover Poly at end of turn.


    Quickly:
    Start of turn--------------- End of turn
    97 :gold: -65 :gold: 32 :gold:
    +219 raw :science:
    We discover Poly at end of turn.

    T110:
    Spoiler :
    Saturn gifts us +17 :gold: we have 32 :gold: Total = +49 :gold:
    FC, CK, OO, GM, Sb, Dt, Zero need to build wealth.
    FC runs no scientists
    JD runs no scientists
    Is runs 2 scientists and max growth otherwise.
    We discover Aethetics at end of turn.

    *Saturn only gifts 17 :gold: because they run at 70% :science: to discover construction


    Quickly:
    Start of turn--------------- End of turn
    49 :gold: -49 :gold: 0 :gold:
    +236 raw :science:
    We discover Aethetics at end of turn.

    T111:
    Spoiler :
    Saturn gifts us +94 :gold: we have 0 :gold: Total = +94 :gold:
    CK, needs to build wealth.
    FC runs no scientists, but has to build reasearch, grows end of turn
    JD runs no scientists, grows end of turn
    Is runs 2 scientists and max growth otherwise.
    We discover Litterature at end of turn.


    Quickly:
    Start of turn--------------- End of turn
    94 :gold: -82 :gold: 12:gold:
    +251 raw :science:
    We discover Litterature at end of turn.


    T111:
    Spoiler :
    Saturn gifts us +94 :gold: we have 12 :gold: Total = +106 :gold:
    CK, needs to build research.
    FC runs no scientists,needs build reasearch
    JD runs no scientists, grows end of turn
    Is runs 2 scientists and max growth otherwise.
    We discover Musicat end of turn.


    Quickly:
    Start of turn--------------- End of turn
    106 :gold: -109 :gold: -3 :gold:
    +289 raw :science:
    We discover Music at end of turn.

    Yes we are 3 gold short on the last turn, but any other city can run wealth to make that up if Saturn hasn't been able to generate that other 3 gold in those turns.

    *I also suggest we send this to saturn so they can see the extent that we have to run our economy to do this.*
     
  20. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    OK, after an idea popped into my head, here is a rough proposal for a method to take Kaz out of the game completely.


    STEP ONE: The Setup

    Chop granaries into DT, TKY, get walls in Zero. Grow TKY and DT to size 4, 1 food from growing. Run the Artist down to Zero, start building Moia at max hammers in FC, grow all out cities as hard as we can. Build into a cat, Ele, HA and sword in DT and TKY (minimal amount, like 4 hammers)


    STEP TWO: The Build Up

    Start a Golden Age with the Artist; revolt to Police State, Vassalage, Slavery. Slave TKY and DT for 2 pop and overflow into another unit to complete in 1 turns; slave on turns 1, 3, 5, 7 of the golden age, after slaving t7 revolt to (Rep)/Bureaucracy/Caste. Build HA in FC and CK (average of between 1/turn and 1.5/turn together, depending on growth in FC)

    STEP THREE: Stealing Lunch Money

    Kill Kaz with out 30 unit stack.​

    Kaleb asked Memphus to write up a proposal where we don't artist Bomb Zero. This would fit into the bill pretty damned well IMO...
     

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