Trump to destroy the lives of 800,000 American children, and is too much of a coward to own it.

[civver_764]

You don't appear to understand the issue very well. DACA only applied to children brought here prior to 2008. There is no incentive to new migrants because they wouldn't qualify for the program. You're commenting on this from a place of complete ignorance.

You're the one who tried to tell me that a higher labor supply = higher wages

In any case, this still rewards people for coming here illegally and is a huge slap in the face to our laws, immigrants that took the time to come here legally, and American workers who are suffering from depressed wages or a lack of job opportunities.

Also, why would immigrants be bad for the economy, but domestically-born people be good for the economy? That claim makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, that all immigration is bad for the economy. It's pretty basically understood that population growth is a driver of economic growth. Trying to rewrite that basic truth is idiocy.

I didn't say they were bad for the economy, I said they were bad for American workers. Immigration is of course very good for large corporations who benefit from the reduced price of labor.

Got a case study of this phenomenon leading to higher wages in the past?

If it's so self-evident, it's bound to have happened in the past, whether it was in the U.S. or somewhere else. So let's see the documentation

Nah I don't have time for that but this documents the wage depression effect:

This wage depressing effect of illegal immigrant workers was documented in 2008 by researchers working for the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta, who found that "average wages among documented [legal] workers are lower in industries that employ undocumented [illegal] workers and that a greater share of undocumented workers in those industries further lowers wages."15 Immigrants introduce downward wage pressure in low-skilled occupations almost everywhere they are found — out of America’s 25 largest metropolitan areas, immigrant wages are at least 10 percent lower than native wages in 24 cities for cashiers and clerks, 23 for construction traders, 22 for cleaning and other building services, and all 25 for fabricators.16

That's just the first result on google, I'm sure you can easily find more examples.

edit: Actually I just remembered seeing this the other day, higher wages as a result of immigration crackdown in Texas:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/08/0...t-labor-feel-effects-immigrant-crackdown.html

"We've seen direct construction costs climb by over 30 percent," Wilson said, "and a lot of that is directly attributed to what builders are having to pay their subs and trades in wages."

Meaning, with so few workers out there, construction companies have had to pay more to attract them, which adds to the cost of a home.

 

[Arent11]

Rest of story here.

Trump has Sessions take the lead on something that he had been talking about, to distance himself from it a bit. Because Sessions is a well known racist who has opposed all immigration his whole adult life. In doing this they chose to make the US a poorer and weaker place, just to throw a bone to their racist core of supporters.

This act is vicious and evil and there is no possible justification for it.

"Opposing immigration" is not racism. If it were so, then socialist countries would be the most racist of all It has been 70 years now that Mao & Hitler wiped out millions
of people, ethnic, ideological & religious groups.

Racism is ethnic cleanings or derogatory views towards certain ethnicities. And it is interesting to observe whether the people who claim that "opposing immigration" would be "racist" are equally vocal if they come across actual ethnic cleanings in the world.

 

[plarq]

Usually those who oppose immigration do not oppose European migrants. Therefore, there's implicit line about pro-immigration/anti-immigration debate about race.

 

[Ryika]

Usually those who oppose immigration do not oppose European migrants. Therefore, there's implicit line about pro-immigration/anti-immigration debate about race.

But even then, are European migrants of certain skin colors excluded? Because if not, then it seems to be about cultural lines, not racial ones.

 

[Gen.Mannerheim]

Also they have to have been younger than 16 when they arrived, and no older than 31, and had a GED or be presently in school (or have been honorably discharged from the military) and had never been convicted of a felony. Seems like a pretty hare-brained scheme for any migrant workers trying to sneak their kid in so their kid (and not them) could someday in the future maybe secure a work visa that may or may not be extended indefinitely.

Exactly, DACA is aimed at streamlining the process for a very particular subset of the immigrant population, not just blanket coverage for all illegals who bring in their children as many believe. Indeed, the vast typical young person whom this covers would most likely have attended American school and are contributing to the American economy directly.

 

[Ryika]

Why don't they just grant amnesty to those children and then introduce some form of ID cards to solve that problem once and for all?

 

[warpus]

Nah I don't have time for that but this documents the wage depression effect:

That's just the first result on google, I'm sure you can easily find more examples.

That's not what I was asking for. I was asking for documented examples of wages going up, not wages going down.

The problem is that you will never kick out enough illegal immigrants to cause wages to go up. Sure, if you kick out millions of them all at the same time, then maybe. But is that feasible? Nah. Never going to happen

 

[sophie]

Why don't they just grant amnesty to those children and then introduce some form of ID cards to solve that problem once and for all?

They did under Reagan. But a Republican congress is not interested in passing amnesty. They tried under Obama, and they had the votes to clear the House, but it got filibustered in the Senate. Same thing happened under Bush. This half-measure was essentially as good as Obama was going to be able to manage on executive privilege alone.

As to id's: Americans generally are terrified of the concept of a national registry for anything. Largely for precisely the reason why the DACA removal is a SNAFU: ICE now knows exactly where to find 800,000 undocumented immigrants ripe for deportation. It also doesn't help that many of the reasons why a national id WOULD be a good thing (easier to file taxes, easier to collect and manage welfare benefits, easier to vote, easier to track down criminal suspects) are things that, for one reason or another, American culture doesn't like.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Why does the thread title say "children" when it seems it's actually about "people who used to be children", also known as adults?

 

[sophie]

Why does the thread title say "children" when it seems it's actually about "people who used to be children", also known as adults?

1) Some are still children. The youngest who qualified then are now 10-11
2) Obviously because it makes for a more alarming headline
3) The order was explicitly designed to protect (then) children who didn't have a say where they lived.
4) The program is called DACA - Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals

 

[Manfred Belheim]

1) Okay
2) As I suspected

3 & 4) Yeah... people who used to be children, as I said.

 

[Ryika]

They did under Reagan. But a Republican congress is not interested in passing amnesty. They tried under Obama, and they had the votes to clear the House, but it got filibustered in the Senate. Same thing happened under Bush. This half-measure was essentially as good as Obama was going to be able to manage on executive privilege alone.

As to id's: Americans generally are terrified of the concept of a national registry for anything. Largely for precisely the reason why the DACA removal is a SNAFU: ICE now knows exactly where to find 800,000 undocumented immigrants ripe for deportation. It also doesn't help that many of the reasons why a national id WOULD be a good thing (easier to file taxes, easier to collect and manage welfare benefits, easier to vote, easier to track down criminal suspects) are things that, for one reason or another, American culture doesn't like.

Americans are really silly in many regards.

 

[civvver]

It seems like a very strange program to go after. To qualify for daca you have to have a clean record and be in school. Basically you are a contributing member of society. Those are the kind of immigrants we want. H1b visas are the kind of immigrants we want, people who are skilled and can do technical jobs. And if you think they are stealing american jobs, go look at all the loopholes companies have to go through plus all the requirements to show that the job has been advertised to americans first and they have been unable to fill it with americans. The problem is native born americans are not entering technical fields quickly enough to fill the demand. These skilled immigrants are consumers and help drive the economy.

I'm all for securing borders and getting rid of illegals who are exploited in low income jobs like working under the table in service industries, or who are criminals or leeching from the economy by filling up emergency rooms or whatever. We have a lot of illegal immigrants in our prisons for example. But to remove daca and h1bs doesn't make sense.

If you want a real reason american wages are depressed it's cus of the busting up of unions that took off in the 80s, trickle down economic policies which incentivise the rich to hoard money rather than invest, and tech- increased productivity per worker means you need less of them and tech companies have gigantic profit margins which mostly go to execs and shareholders over the labor. This is not always bad though as increased productivity means lower costs of consumables and increased technology means a better lifestyle. Even though median wages have mostly stagnated since the early 2000s, a lot of stuff is cheaper now than the 2000s or more accessible, mostly internet and cell phones off the top of my head.

 

[plarq]

Americans are really silly in many regards.

I think people have reasons to be paranoid about federal government's registry power, and it is not some silly state-rightist Jim Crow-ist racist stuff. Exactly DACA registered those people, and the end of DACA would cause those people ready to be deported. Actually, it kicked the asses of people who trusted federal government.

 

[Perfection]

Dude it's well documented that immigration depresses wages, ESPECIALLY for low-skilled workers, the poor Americans you claim to care so much about. There's really no arguing on this point.

ANY immigration will have this effect. DACA is even worse because it incentivizes people to ignore our laws and come here illegally.

well educated young people with no criminal backgrounds are good for the economy. This ought be blindingly obvious.

 

[JollyRoger]

You'll have to pry Consuela from my cold, dead hands.

 

[metalhead]

In any case, this still rewards people for coming here illegally

No it doesn't. The people covered by DACA didn't make the decision to come here, their parents did.

and is a huge slap in the face to our laws, immigrants that took the time to come here legally, and American workers who are suffering from depressed wages or a lack of job opportunities.

They aren't Americans? Says who? You're still trying to argue that people with an education and no criminal record are bad for the economy. There is probably not a single economist on the planet who would agree with you. I don't think your issue is based on economics, because the economics are completely against you, at least as it pertains to DACA.

I didn't say they were bad for the economy, I said they were bad for American workers. Immigration is of course very good for large corporations who benefit from the reduced price of labor.

They ARE American workers. Many of them have been here almost their entire lives.

edit: Actually I just remembered seeing this the other day, higher wages as a result of immigration crackdown in Texas:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/08/0...t-labor-feel-effects-immigrant-crackdown.html

"But apart from higher prices and inconvenience to consumers, Marek said the worker shortage is a drag on the economy, keeping the recovery from going full throttle. Marek said he is turning down projects for lack of workers.

"I think if we were able to find the legal workers," says Marek, "we could add in our company maybe another five to 600 people. There's work out there if we could find those people."

See, this is the problem. You don't understand how any of this works. All you saw was "Higher wages!" The part you missed was, "fewer employees and less work." 500 or 600 good construction jobs could be added, enough to support a couple hundred of other jobs in hospitality, food service, etc. So you have fewer jobs, you have slower economic growth, AND you have higher prices to consumers. Where is this upside you were talking about, exactly? Because I'm not seeing it here, that's for sure.

 

[Cutlass]

"Opposing immigration" is not racism. If it were so, then socialist countries would be the most racist of all It has been 70 years now that Mao & Hitler wiped out millions
of people, ethnic, ideological & religious groups.

Racism is ethnic cleanings or derogatory views towards certain ethnicities. And it is interesting to observe whether the people who claim that "opposing immigration" would be "racist" are equally vocal if they come across actual ethnic cleanings in the world.

Why do you include Mao with Hitler when Hitler was the furthest right leader of the furthest right government the world has ever seen? And, while we're at it, do you have any evidence for either being against immigration? Hitler would be very race based about it, Aryans or Scandinavians. Which is pretty much the same as much of the far right in the US. Mao simply had 100s of millions of people in a country no one wanted to move into because it was already so overpopulated.

 

[JollyRoger]

Immigration barriers are just a socialistic scheme to suppress the free market supply of labor.

 

[Cutlass]

HUGE win for American workers!

DACA is a terrible program which condones and rewards illegal immigration, and is unconstitutional to boot. Trump should have ended it day one.

This will not harm America. This will result in higher wages and more jobs for Americans.

Also most DACA recipients are in their 20s, not children.

The US will be a far poorer country in the long run, and have a smaller and weaker place in the world. How does that harm Americans?

The Economic and Fiscal Impact of Repealing DACA
By Ike Brannon and Logan Albright
Share
Executive Summary

Donald Trump has proposed eliminating or severely modifying the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program. Many Americans believe that the presence of unauthorized immigrants is harmful to the economy and would like to see steps taken to reduce their presence. However, a repeal or roll-back of DACA would harm the economy and cost the U.S. government a significant amount of lost tax revenue. We estimate that the fiscal cost of immediately deporting the approximately 750,000 people currently in the DACA program would be over $60 billion to the federal government along with a $280 billion reduction in economic growth over the next decade.

We arrived at our estimates by comparing and adjusting the characteristics of DACA recipients to similarly well-educated immigrants admitted through the H-1B visa program, a cohort that not only resembles the population of DACA recipients but whose own economic impact has been well-studied. We use the estimated budgetary and economic impact of H-1B visa workers and adjust it to reflect the age and earnings differences between the two groups to calculate our figures.
...


Small Gains, Big Costs

There are valid reasons to be concerned about unauthorized immigration in the United States. The DACA program, however, screens out anyone with a criminal past as part of its core eligibility requirements. DACA participants are not eligible for means-tested welfare benefits or Obamacare subsidies.

Since DACA applicants pay their own processing fees, the program itself does not have an administrative cost, and so the only costs we need to evaluate are those that stem from having these people in the country in the first place. We submit that any such costs are far outweighed by the benefits that come from immigrants who are able to work openly and legally, pay taxes, support entitlement programs, create jobs, innovate, and sire children who will one day do the same.

The deportation of DACA participants would cost the American economy billions of dollars, as well as billions of tax dollars foregone, while doing little to address the true concerns that Americans may have about unauthorized immigrants.

CATO.