Trump to destroy the lives of 800,000 American children, and is too much of a coward to own it.

[Ryika]

AND you have higher prices to consumers

That's hilarious given that in this example we're talking about homes. How many lower-class people do you think are going to be negatively affected with the price of the house that they can't afford anyway because they're being paid low wages, goes up?

I agree that it doesn't actually work like that in the greater picture, but this is literally an example of construction workers getting more money because their labor is now less abundant, and middle- and upper class people paying the price for it, and you're arguing that's bad. Feed them to the wolves I guess?

 

[JollyRoger]

Given that Trump's mother was an immigrant, I can see the point about how immigrants are bad for America.

 

[metalhead]

That's hilarious given that in this example we're talking about homes. How many lower-class people do you think are going to be negatively affected with the price of the house that they can't afford anyway because they're being paid low wages, goes up?

I agree that it doesn't actually work like that in the greater picture, but this is literally an example of construction workers getting more money because their labor is now less abundant, and middle- and upper class people paying the price for it, and you're arguing that's bad. Feed them to the wolves I guess?

Do you honestly not understand how low housing supply and higher housing costs hurts everyone? Or are you just being deliberately obtuse?

 

[Ryika]

Do you honestly not understand how low housing supply and higher housing costs hurts everyone? Or are you just being deliberately obtuse?

This is simply built of a false premise. There is no sign of "low housing supply", the general housing situation is likely better than before, because the immigrant workers went back to their home countries and now no longer need a place to live, d'uh.

 

[civver_764]

That's not what I was asking for. I was asking for documented examples of wages going up, not wages going down.

The problem is that you will never kick out enough illegal immigrants to cause wages to go up. Sure, if you kick out millions of them all at the same time, then maybe. But is that feasible? Nah. Never going to happen

Did you miss my edit where I showed you exactly that?

They aren't Americans? Says who?

The law.

You're still trying to argue that people with an education and no criminal record are bad for the economy.

Keep making things up, hombre.

There is probably not a single economist on the planet who would agree with you. I don't think your issue is based on economics, because the economics are completely against you, at least as it pertains to DACA.

Not an argument.

They ARE American workers. Many of them have been here almost their entire lives.

Nope, they are illegal aliens. Obama's unconstitutional executive order may have changed that, but that just means Trump can just as easily rescind that status, and so he should.

See, this is the problem. You don't understand how any of this works.

You know how I know I'm right? You constantly resort to ad hominem attacks. This reflects a serious lack of confidence in your own position and an unwillingness to consider information that counters your worldview.

All you saw was "Higher wages!" The part you missed was, "fewer employees and less work." 500 or 600 good construction jobs could be added, enough to support a couple hundred of other jobs in hospitality, food service, etc. So you have fewer jobs, you have slower economic growth, AND you have higher prices to consumers. Where is this upside you were talking about, exactly? Because I'm not seeing it here, that's for sure.

Dude I literally said that the upside is higher wages for American workers, how many times do I have to say this before it sinks in? Fewer jobs? It clearly states that there are more jobs for legal workers, with higher wages to boot. How can you claim to care about the working class and then be opposed to such a thing?

Higher prices to consumers? Sure, but that's just because the price is artificially low due to illegal immigration. You know the price of cotton went up when slavery was ended too, right?

I love how liberals all of a sudden become free market libertarians when we start talking about immigration

 

[JollyRoger]

This is simply built of a false premise. There is no sign of "low housing supply", the general housing situation is likely better than before, because the immigrant workers went back to their home countries and now no longer need a place to live, d'uh.

So then there is no need to build?

 

[Ryika]

So then there is no need to build?

Not really, no. Of course people still WANT their single-family homes (aka luxury goods), which is why the demand is still there, and because the supply of that luxury good has decreased, they now have to pay more for them, because the people building them are paid more than the slave labor wage they got before.

That's such an amazingly one-sided example that is so different from the overall picture, I'm almost in awe that it exists. And metalhead ran right into that trap, and now he has to defend something that one would think goes against his general ideological leanings because he didn't think it through and also can't admit that he was wrong on this specific example, because it would diminish the position of authority that he's trying to build for the overall discussion.

 

[warpus]

Did you miss my edit where I showed you exactly that?

The law.

So in your opinion in the next couple months millions of people will be deported and the wages of most Americans will immediately go up? Spell it out for me so that we can revisit this in a couple months' time.

 

[civver_764]

So in your opinion in the next couple months millions of people will be deported and the wages of most Americans will immediately go up? Spell it out for me so that we can revisit this in a couple months' time.

My position is that every illegal immigrant deported is a net positive. I never claimed that millions of illegal immigrants will be deported, nor is it necessary for that many to be deported for us to see positive effects, as deomstrated by the Texas construction industry. I would very much like to see every illegal immigrant deported, but I strongly doubt that is going to happen.

edit: I know ya'll aren't fond of Youtube videos, but my man James Allsup breaks it down very nicely here, for those interested:

 

[warpus]

My position is that every illegal immigrant deported is a net positive. I never claimed that millions of illegal immigrants will be deported, nor is it necessary for that many to be deported for us to see positive effects, as deomstrated by the Texas construction industry.

What sort of improvement to the wages of Americans do you predict? Let's say we jump forward in time by 4 months. Will Americans be making $1/hr more an average? $2? $4? $8? What's your prediction?

 

[civver_764]

What sort of improvement to the wages of Americans do you predict? Let's say we jump forward in time by 4 months. Will Americans be making $1/hr more an average? $2? $4? $8? What's your prediction?

That depends entirely on the industry in question, what percentage of the labor force are illegal immigrants, and how low these illegal immigrants are willing to work for. Some industries will see more improvement than others, but I do predict that no industries will see a decrease in wages as a result of deportations, that seems fairly obvious.

 

[warpus]

That depends entirely on the industry in question, what percentage of the labor force are illegal immigrants, and how low these illegal immigrants are willing to work for. Some industries will see more improvement than others, but I do predict that no industries will see a decrease in wages as a result of deportations, that seems fairly obvious.

Throw some numbers out there so that we can compare, in 4 months' time.

My prediction? Wages might go up a couple cents here and there, likely tied to completely different factors than deportation. A couple industries might be affected by more than that, but all in all Americans aren't really going to see an increase in their wages overall.

 

[JollyRoger]

Not really, no. Of course people still WANT their single-family homes (aka luxury goods), which is why the demand is still there, and because the supply of that luxury good has decreased, they now have to pay more for them, because the people building them are paid more than the slave labor wage they got before.

That's such an amazingly one-sided example that is so different from the overall picture, I'm almost in awe that it exists. And metalhead ran right into that trap, and now he has to defend something that one would think goes against his general ideological leanings because he didn't think it through and also can't admit that he was wrong on this specific example, because it would diminish the position of authority that he's trying to build for the overall discussion.

Did you consider demand will drop because there are less consumers for goods and services in general, plus increased labor costs in many industries, thus causing layoffs, slimmer profit margins, and even less people able to splurge on luxury goods?

 

[Cutlass]

I love how liberals all of a sudden become free market libertarians when we start talking about immigration

I love how conservatives prove they never were free market libertarians in the first place when it comes to immigration.

 

[warpus]

I hate how everything becomes "Us vs Them" in the U.S. when any sort of issue comes up that has a political component.

 

[civver_764]

Throw some numbers out there so that we can compare, in 4 months' time.

My prediction? Wages might go up a couple cents here and there, likely tied to completely different factors than deportation. A couple industries might be affected by more than that, but all in all Americans aren't really going to see an increase in their wages overall.

I can't give you any specific numbers but I predict that all industries dominated by illegal immigration will see a pretty massive rise in wages, namely Agriculture, Construction, and Manufacturing. Other industries will probably not see any change in wages (at least not as a result of deportations), but it's important to note that increased wages for the working class benefits us all. That means less burden on our welfare system, less inequality, less crime, and an overall more cohesive society. In 4 months the benefits will probably be pretty subtle, but I think by the time Trump runs again in 2020 people will be begging for more.

I love how conservatives prove they never were free market libertarians in the first place when it comes to immigration.

The thing with that is that open borders becomes terrible when you realize that these people can have anchor babies, vote for Democrats, and go on welfare to support their children. If we do away with all of that then I would be happy to consider an open borders policy. You simply cannot have a generous welfare state and open borders at the same time.

 

[JollyRoger]

Illegal aliens can vote? Do you consider Trump an anchor baby? How about 4 of his kids?

 

[Ryika]

Did you consider demand will drop because there are less consumers for goods and services in general, plus increased labor costs in many industries, thus causing layoffs, slimmer profit margins, and even less people able to splurge on luxury goods?

Yes, that's what happens when you stagger economic growth by removing workers and consumers from the equation. Like I said, I'm well aware of the fact that in the greater picture it doesn't work like that, I am just amazed that metalhead would get himself into the position where he argues that people must be paid low wages so that rich people have cheaper houses.

 

[warpus]

I can't give you any specific numbers but I predict that all industries dominated by illegal immigration will see a pretty massive rise in wages, namely Agriculture, Construction, and Manufacturing.

Okay cool, thanks for playing along and throwing out a forecast. Let's say 4 months time and "pretty massive" meaning 60-150% ? Would you say that's an accurate numerical representation of your prediction?

 

[civver_764]

Illegal aliens can vote? Do you consider Trump an anchor baby? How about 4 of his kids?

Were Trump's parents illegal aliens?

Illegal aliens certainly can vote, there are many cases of voter fraud. And the Democrat party certainly wants to make it as easy as possible for them to become full citizens so they can vote for Democrats. Their kids will also be full citizens and are highly likely to vote for Democrats when they become adults. The Democrat party plays the Hispanic identity politics game heavily for this reason.

Okay cool, thanks for playing along and throwing out a forecast. Let's say 4 months time and "pretty massive" meaning 60-150% ? Would you say that's an accurate numerical representation of your prediction?

I honestly couldn't tell you without doing the math and looking more specifically into these industries. Off the top of my head I'd say more like 30-100% could be considered "pretty massive".