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Trying to understand the mechanics of capitulation

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Rocker69, May 13, 2010.

  1. Rocker69

    Rocker69 Chieftain

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    I've noticed that, starting on Noble I guess, the AI capitulates cities very quickly. They start a war with some other civ and, instead of just ending the war, it ALWAYS makes it his vassal.

    Since I've yet to familiarize myself with this thing, I'm constantly having to defend myself from a civ that has sometimes 3 other civ's as it's vassal...which makes it nearly impossible for me to win.

    So I wanted to understand how it works. I tried to make a civ my vassal sometimes but they always say that they're doing fine on their own. What scenario is necessary for this to happen? I couldn't find a good article regarding this subject.
     
  2. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    For a civ to capitulate you need:
    -twice their power
    -twice their land
    -40 more war success against them

    Obviously this doesn't work against already vassals.

    War success:
    4 points for units killed while attacking
    3 points for units killed when attacking
    10 points for taking cities
    1 point for workers/settlers iIrc

    Say you take 1 city, kill 10 units and lose 12 units.

    That's 10+10*4-12*3 = 14 war success... you need more success.

    Being a land neighbor (share 8 tiles in a border) helps too, there's an additional penalty if your land is too far away.
     
  3. Rocker69

    Rocker69 Chieftain

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    Ok thanks man. But I do think that the AI has an easier way of making a civ their vassal.
     
  4. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    Technically no, the rules are the same. The only difference is the AI pays less unit upkeep and gets price discounts :) (on higher levels of course).

    Once you've got 1 vassal, part of his land and power is added to your own which makes further capitulations easier, usually called "chain-capitulation" around here.
     
  5. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    A note : a civ will never surrender to you if you are also warring someone more powerful than them, regardless of fullfilling the minimum obligations for it ( that kossin stated above ).
     
  6. Rocker69

    Rocker69 Chieftain

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    Yeah, I figured that out...who'd want that?
     
  7. NonPrayinMantis

    NonPrayinMantis Chieftain

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    One rare reason I have seen for a civ not capitulating is "You have become too powerful for us".

    :dubious:

    WTF!

    Doesn't this miss the whole point of vassals? "You have become too powerful for us" is the very reason too become a vassal, not avoid being one!

    Perhaps this has something to do with that? Or is the above the result of some other mechanic?

    NPM
     
  8. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    You do not need twice their land and pop. You generally need double in at least ONE category of land or pop unless war success is tremendous.

    I routinely capitulate AIs with ~ 80% of my land, as long as they're <50% pop. This is especially common if my cities are heavily coastal and I'm doing naval coastal raids.

    Pretty sure this is wrong, and that you don't get vassal power (though targets get to consider their own vassal power to block capping).

    "chain capitulation" is named for the way vassals trigger the "land target of a war ally" rule for capitulation, such that you just border hop taking a city or two then capitulation.

    Final note:

    The AI will never vassal if their power is > world's average power, no matter how bad you're bending them over. No matter if you have 6000 war success and 5x their power. No, as long as they are above the AVERAGE power, as long as they're a couple little putzy colonies and 1 city vassals elsewhere, they are still "doing fine on their own". This is true even if those vassals happen to belong to you, by the way, such that LOWERING your average power by world builder deleting your own vassal would ALLOW capitulation when it wouldn't otherwise.

    But people still like telling me that this mechanic is fine.
     
  9. Rocker69

    Rocker69 Chieftain

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    I may be saying it because I suck at it (as of this moment) but I hate this vassal thing. It cheapens the game and the AI is completely obsessed with it, I've seen it capitulates even 4 civ's in one game! When I wage war I like to eliminate the civ, not make it my b***.
     
  10. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Every time I play I get closer to never playing with vassal states on again. I would think otherwise if there was enough spawn + expansion balance, but it seems every game I play lately one AI implodes at the start, sometimes two, allowing others to get roughly double the land a civ should have on average on the map. That turns into lots of vassals and gets really piss-ant annoying.
     

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