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TSG 243 Announcement

Nizef

Emperor
GOTM Staff
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Oct 22, 2018
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Civilization 5 - Game of the Month Training Series Game 243
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Welcome to the 243rd game in the GOTM V Training Series! This Series allows new and old Civilization V fans to try out many features from Civ5's expansions and DLCs in a friendly environment. Participants are encouraged to post questions, stories, advice, tricks and failures in the dedicated game threads (described below). Each game will specify the Civ you will play and the Victory Condition to strive for. You can read more about the GOTM and Training Series concept in this thread.

MUST READ!
Our most sacred rule: Do not replay any turns!
If you make a mistake, accept it, and try to recover through game-play. To ensure fair play and prevent results exclusions, please set your Autosaves to "1 turn". In the event of a computer crash while playing, just reload to the previous autosave, then play on the same way you played it the first time. Please let Leif or me know (either in the forums or through Private Message) if you experienced a crash and how many turns you replayed.
TSG243 Details:
Game Settings:
Player (You): Catherine - Russia
Victory Condition: Science
(but all VCs are enabled)
Difficulty: Prince
Map Type/Size: Ice Age / Standard
(8 Civs, 16 City-States)
Pace: Standard
Your Unique Characteristics:
UA: Siberian Riches:
Strategic resources give +1 hammer and when improved they provide double the normal amount.
UB: Krepost (Barracks): Reduces the gold and culture costs of acquiring new tiles in the respective city by 25%.
UU: Cossack (Cavalry). +33% combat strength against wounded units.
Required DLC: All DLCs.
Starting Era: Ancient
Required game options: None
Enabled game options: Quick Combat, Quick Movement
(You may turn on/off Quick Combat/Quick Movement using the game options menu at any time during gameplay.)
Game Version: This game was created in Civ5 Brave New World version 1.0.3.279.
Here is where you will start:
TSG243Start.jpg


The start file is attached below.

Information about threads associated with each individual TSG - Must Read if you are new to the Game of the Month!

Please note:

Spoiler :

If you wish to make a video of your game, please do not post any links to it until after the game submission date has passed. This is because of the potential spoilers that are created by posting before the end date. Thank you for your cooperation.
TSG Announcement thread (this one): This thread is used to announce the game and clarify the settings and rules (don't be afraid to ask questions). Its also used to discuss the game before you start, and post problems with opening the save. Please don't post any game-related info once you open and play the save. Instead use the next thread.
After Actions thread: In this thread you can post the results of your game. Please state your victory/loss date (preferably in the post title) and describe your path to glory in this post! Players are encouraged to provide feedback on the game. Some players like to replay the game, and although we will not record the results from a replay, you can still post your new experiences. The game will not be closed as such, but after one month, the results will be compiled, and will not necessarily be updated with reports coming in after the finish date.


File Upload System
Spoiler :

We have a game file upload system you can find here. Please use it to upload your completed first attempt by saving the game on the turn after your victory or defeat. (by using the "lemme play one more turn" feature) Please note: you must submit your game on the turn following Victory. If you continue to play, the game overwrites the data and your submission could be rejected by the submission system.
This game runs through May 15th 2024.



@The_J @Blake00

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@Nizef I believe that the UA is incorrect. As far as I know, all strategic resources provide +1 hammers, but only Horses, Iron and Uranium are provided in double quantity.
 
The strategic resource bonus usually functions as an economic benefit, allowing you to double your normal early game GPT boost from selling off horses and iron. But this ends up being much less valuable on lower difficulties.

The forests give us a lot of flexibility for chopping out the early build order. But the starting position desperately needs a river for all those plains tiles. And hopefully some hills in the second and third ring.

If we find some, I think the tried and true 3-city Tradition until NC, then either found a couple more cities or start conquering; else, I’ll probably go for a semi-wide Liberty opening.
 
The forests give us a lot of flexibility for chopping out the early build order. But the starting position desperately needs a river for all those plains tiles. And hopefully some hills in the second and third ring.

If we find some, I think the tried and true 3-city Tradition until NC, then either found a couple more cities or start conquering; else, I’ll probably go for a semi-wide Liberty opening.
I am in love with the liberty tree but this time I may try to resist it. Here's a comparison of the main advantages and your comments would be interesting:

Liberty:
* Citizenship: The free worker comes early or fairly early, especially if you pop 20 culture, and unlike a captured worker doesn't have to walk home to the capital. Early chopping of the forests is valuable and faster work actions aren't negligible.
* Republic: One extra hammer and the 5% can make a difference early on.
* Collective rule: That's 500 gold saved. And do I even have 500 gold to buy an early settler? Not always. Maybe on pangea where I meet new city states every other turn and many barb camps to clear, but not on a small continent.
* Representation is also pretty good although it postpones the next GA. The "increase the Culture cost of policies by 33% less than normal" I find hard to measure but it should have some effect.
* The free great person is very useful, eg to hurry the Oracle, although the second great person is delayed (requiring 200 great person points rather than 100 if I pick Great Engineer, Great Scientist or (theoretically) Great Merchant).

Tradition:
* The 3 early culture are better than the 1 culture per city provided by liberty and the fast border expansion is usually very good. And Hanging Gardens is likely to be more important than Pyramids in this game - garden not buildable in capital and limited food supply.
* Aristocracy: Helps with wonders for all eras, not just ancient and classical and may help us not to miss Hanging Gardens in particular.
* Legalism: The free cultural building frees up building something else in the expands. In the capital it is likely to give an amphitheatre, which is pretty useless here.
* Monarchy is maybe slightly better than Representation (although I haven't measured the value of representation). The reduced unhappiness shouldn't be vital on the prince level but the extra coin isn't negligible.
* Landed elite comes late but food is important.
* Free acqeducts are nice. They come late but so do the techs that allow us to build them.

In conclusion I believe the Tradition advantages are more numerous - it's doubtful if Republic deserves to be on the list - but as usual a couple of the Liberty advantages are very desireable. Then there is the fact that the Tradition starter is much better than the Liberty starter.
 
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If I want to do Liberty but the start has no fresh water, I often open Tradition for my first policy, then switch to Liberty. Then I prioritize Hanging Gardens. It also buys a little time for scouting in case I change my mind about Tradition vs Liberty after seeing more of the map and who my neighbors are. It does slow down your free settler a bit, but not as much as you'd expect. Aristocracy is a great policy to take late-game for its happiness boost as well as extra production for wonders.

Here I'll move my warrior to the silver first, but will probably settle in place. I like the 2 deer tiles in the first ring and at least 5 good tiles including marble in the 2nd ring
 
* Citizenship: The free worker comes early or fairly early, especially if you pop 20 culture, and unlike a captured worker doesn't have to walk home to the capital. Early chopping of the forests is valuable and faster work actions aren't negligible.
In the standard Liberty opening, this is the third policy taken, not the first. If you’re taking Citizenship before Republic it’s going to drastically alter the effectiveness of Liberty on higher difficulty levels.

Delaying your expansion for one free worker is a huge loss of tempo.
 
In the standard Liberty opening, this is the third policy taken, not the first. If you’re taking Citizenship before Republic it’s going to drastically alter the effectiveness of Liberty on higher difficulty levels.

Delaying your expansion for one free worker is a huge loss of tempo.
This is surely true for a lot of games, but please elaborate on ”higher difficulty”, since this game is not on a high difficulty level. It is unlikely that the good spots to settle will be grabbed by the AI.
 
If I want to do Liberty but the start has no fresh water, I often open Tradition for my first policy, then switch to Liberty. Then I prioritize Hanging Gardens.

Sorry, but I find it hard to see how this is viable on Deity. For the cost of an additional policy, which delays expansion, you unlock a wonder that you might not even get. If you need food in the capital, building a cargo ship and prioritizing a granary in your first expansion city would be much more efficient.

Furthermore, this approach requires you to move Mathematics up in your tech progression.
 
This is surely true for a lot of games, but please elaborate on ”higher difficulty”, since this game is not on a high difficulty level. It is unlikely that the good spots to settle will be grabbed by the AI.
That is true, but this simply means you can get away with inefficiencies. Getting the free settler before the worker is optimal because you start snowballing earlier. This advantage carries through the entire game and does not change with difficulty level; the only difference is that you will pull ahead of the AI much faster on lower difficulty.

But the point is that you are comparing the standard Tradition opening with a non-standard (slower) Liberty opening. You’ve sacrificed the primary advantage of Liberty (speed) and then come to the conclusion that Tradition offers more advantages.
 
@Megalou

My general approach to these lower level games is to play as close to how I would on Deity and account for the differences. But policy progression does not change.

For example, on lower difficulty, gold is actually harder to come by because the AI has less gold to trade away. This means that extra strategic and luxuries are less valuable. So you have to prioritize economic and happiness buildings more than normal.

Another key difference is that external trade routes are much less valuable, so getting National College earlier is helpful.

I also find it’s best to build a worker early because stealing one takes a long time.
 
That is true, but this simply means you can get away with inefficiencies. Getting the free settler before the worker is optimal because you start snowballing earlier. This advantage carries through the entire game and does not change with difficulty level; the only difference is that you will pull ahead of the AI much faster on lower difficulty.

But the point is that you are comparing the standard Tradition opening with a non-standard (slower) Liberty opening. You’ve sacrificed the primary advantage of Liberty (speed) and then come to the conclusion that Tradition offers more advantages.
Your answer is sensible but it seems I should point out that I never advocated going for the free worker first as a rule. Popping 20 culture speeds up the policies regardless of what you choose since you quickly go from 1 culture per turn to 2.
 
Your original post comparing the policy trees appeared to imply an order (perhaps unintentionally).

Did you start the game yet? I’ll commit to Liberty and you can do Tradition, then we can compare.
I sometimes start with citizenship, eg if alone on an island, but it was listed first because it was the first good Liberty policy I thought of. It would be nice to compare but I’m not going to commit to Tradition beforehand.
 
Interesting discussion going on.
Sorry, but I find it hard to see how this is viable on Deity. For the cost of an additional policy, which delays expansion, you unlock a wonder that you might not even get.
For this comment, do you mean opening Tradition strictly for the Hanging Gardens is not viable? Or do you mean opening Tradition before going Liberty is just plain bad altogether. Because I do that all the time - and I'm not a good player, so maybe I should not be opening Tradition ever if I plan on going Liberty?

Part of the problem is that border expansion is so painfully slow without the Tradition opener that I can't stand it. Also, I often don't know if Liberty will be viable by the time I get my first policy so I open Tradition just in case.
 
Interesting discussion going on.

For this comment, do you mean opening Tradition strictly for the Hanging Gardens is not viable? Or do you mean opening Tradition before going Liberty is just plain bad altogether. Because I do that all the time - and I'm not a good player, so maybe I should not be opening Tradition ever if I plan on going Liberty?

Part of the problem is that border expansion is so painfully slow without the Tradition opener that I can't stand it. Also, I often don't know if Liberty will be viable by the time I get my first policy so I open Tradition just in case.
What do you mean by liberty being viable? It’s available from the beginning, I believe.

I agree about the slow borders. Buying tiles is the only comfort I suppose.
 
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For this comment, do you mean opening Tradition strictly for the Hanging Gardens is not viable?
Yes. In general I just think HG is average. Even if I am going full tradition I rarely ever consider it, given the risk of losing that production if someone beats me to it, and definitely not when I have a coastal capital.

My tech route to Civil Service typically ends with Math -> Currency, so this means it’s often too late for HG anyway.

Or do you mean opening Tradition before going Liberty is just plain bad altogether. Because I do that all the time - and I'm not a good player, so maybe I should not be opening Tradition ever if I plan on going Liberty?
I have experimented with this before and I find that the extra policy is not worth it. Think of it like this: on your 7th policy, would you rather be opening tradition or commerce (SV), patronage (DiploV), Aesthetics (CV).

Liberty trades long-term value (Tradition) for early tempo in the form of quick expansions. I usually start building my first settler before adopting Collective Rule, meaning I jump from 1 to 3 cities very quickly. If you’re opening Tradition first, I would try to already be done with my second settler before Collective Rule. This means you’re building two settlers for full cost. Waiting for collective rule to start building settlers will put you really far behind on tempo.
Also, I often don't know if Liberty will be viable by the time I get my first policy so I open Tradition just in case.
If I get a very early culture ruin (like turn 2-3), I will usually just commit to Tradition, as it’s always a safe pick and will give you a solid foundation for any victory condition.

There’s more that can go wrong with Liberty. And I have never found a way to mix them that didn’t feel clunky and worse than just committing to one or the other.
 
What do you mean by liberty being viable? It’s available from the beginning, I believe.
I was responding to RuntyBassoon's statement that its not viable on Deity - meaning it won't work well on Deity, not that it isn't possible to open it from the beginning. And he answered the question in the post above. I still cringe when I think of the slow border growth though.
 
I was responding to RuntyBassoon's statement that its not viable on Deity - meaning it won't work well on Deity, not that it isn't possible to open it from the beginning. And he answered the question in the post above. I still cringe when I think of the slow border growth though.
Do you mean to say that the free settler comes too late on Deity? Sometimes, yes probably. But I don’t think it’s useless. 🤔

I’ve gone from spending my money on CS gifts to mainly buy tiles. In some games it’s possible to save 500 💰 for an early settler but normally it’s a bit too much.
 
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Do you mean to say that the free settler comes too late on Deity? Sometimes, yes probably. But I don’t think it’s useless. 🤔

I’ve gone from spending my money on CS gifts to mainly buy tiles. In some games it’s possible to save 500 💰 for an early settler but normally it’s a bit too much.
I think Runty's point was that opening Tradition and then going Liberty (as opposed to just going full Liberty from the start) does delay the free settler too much. And the free settler is one of the major reasons for going Liberty. I have heard people say the same thing before but there have also been people say its not too bad of a delay.

I mainly open Tradition first simply to get the culture going and for the border expansion. Next map we get in a GotM that looks like it might be good for Liberty I'm going to go straight for Liberty without opening Tradition and see if its better.
 
I think Runty's point was that opening Tradition and then going Liberty (as opposed to just going full Liberty from the start) does delay the free settler too much. And the free settler is one of the major reasons for going Liberty. I have heard people say the same thing before but there have also been people say its not too bad of a delay.
It also means you are using your 7th policy to finish Liberty, instead of opening one of the other trees. This means your GE for the NC is delayed—not necessarily the worst, as it’s not uncommon to get through Liberty faster than I can get libraries up in all my cities (especially if I ally a culture CS, get a culture pantheon, or have to build other stuff, like triremes or archers).

I feel like waiting for NC in this situation might be incorrect, so I would probably just build it and then use my Liberty finisher for another wonder or just plant a GS.
I mainly open Tradition first simply to get the culture going and for the border expansion.
You may be settling your expansion cities too far apart when going Liberty. That will help you grab tiles in the 3rd ring of your capital cheaper (by buying them from the 2nd ring of your expo).

Another thing is that you might be growing too quickly, causing you to need more good tiles to work). On Liberty starts I am fine with stalling my capital at 6-7 pop and expos at 3 and just pushing production and gold while my workers hook up my luxuries (especially when you have truffles, ivory, furs, or jungle calendar luxuries).

Waiting until you have aqueducts up is much more efficient anyway. I try to get them finished around 5 pop in my expos.
 
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