TSG 261 Opening Actions

[Nizef]

This thread is used to discuss the game's opening decisions and strategies through the first 100 or so turns (in this case roughly on turn 200). Here you can post questions related to the game and share your achievements/anger/frustration/victories while you play.

- What did you think about before starting the game, what was your approach to this game?
- Where did you settle and what did you build first?
- How did the terrain and map settings affect your early decisions?
- What were your initial priorities?
- What tech path did you follow and why?
- What Social Policies did you choose?
- What Wonders did you try to get and did you get them?
- Did you get a religion? What religious beliefs did you pick?

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

In all the thousands of games I started (considerably more than I finished ;-)) I had never before started a game in the medieval era, and it provided its own set of challenges. Without ancient ruins, and with only a few city states to encounter early on this map, gold was low. You get a bonus 25 gold when you settle the capital, but you are also already negative one gold per turn. I thought perhaps I could tribute city states, but that did not work either. Apparently, the AI starts with even more stuff, so we are lowest army (I did not check by how much, perhaps building one scout would have made us joint top army already). I also did not try to 'concentrate' my three spearmen in one direction, as they all ran off in different direction is search of settle spots.

Another minor issue was where to go with the second settler. I settled the first one in place, and the second settler was best placed to find a spot along the coast to the south. Technically, it would have been possible to squeeze in a city between Kuala Lumpur and London, but it would have been very bad, and would have needed to steal a lot of tiles from the capital (which, for this game in which we only need to pump out ships, might actually be fine, except I hate settling ugly cities close to my capital). So I had to backtrack with my settler to the east coast, which meant I was only 6th to get a pantheon. A final drawback of this setup is that there is nothing stopping the AI from clicking Colossus on turn 1, as it seemed some did as it was the first wonder to go.

One interesting thing is what to choose for opening policies. I suspect that Liberty for an immediate hammer, settler, hammer, and worker might be pretty strong, especially since you get a free monument - one of the things I hate about Liberty is having to build one. However, I can't stand the lack of border growth, gold, and happiness from Liberty, so I opened tradition anyway. In addition, I took exploration and picked the hammer policy. That, plus I managed to get Oracle, are more or less the only good things in my game.

I've played one morning session of about 45 minutes and came away pretty frustrated (which incidentally is not the best way to start the day...). As mentioned, I started by moving my settler in the wrong direction. When I did settle York, it was on the wrong coast (or at least too far for a cargo ships without a harbor). I was camping Kuala Lumpur for a worker, but it never built one. I did steal one settler from Siam, but that was too late to make an early game impact. On the whole, my game just feels super slow, and it's not going to get better any time soon, as I will need circus maximus before I can grow my cities at least a little, and I'm having to work my lovely cotton tiles so as not to lose science too. I was thinking of sending hammer cargo ships instead of food that I prefer to send, only to find out that hammer cargoes have been nerfed?? Is that part of the particular version of the game we are playing (I noticed no ToA or Mausoleum either, as we have seen in a few other GotM editions as well).

 

[qontroL]

I came into the game with a very different gameplan from @The_Black_Vegetable walking into my own pitfalls and struggles.

I am completely new to late starts, so I was pretty excited to see what options I had available. And in my excitement I walked into my first pitfall.
England is known to Longbowmen, Ship of the Line, but I figured; if we're starting the game in Medieval there might be something about England even stronger than those 2 units, I only need a few techs to reach the Renaissance and get 2 spies that I can use to steal technologies.
The problem I am running in to now is that... without Science, those few techs still take a long time. Also Great Library not being available (I didn't expect that) made the plan a bit more difficult to execute.

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Either way, I settled London in place and immediately starting construction on the Colossus. I started the game opening Exploration and Maritime Infrastructure and opening Liberty and getting the free Worker and used both Workers to chop. I figured there's absolutely no chance the AI could construct wonders faster than me if I was using these policies, and I was correct.
I settled York slightly south to guarantee the trade route with my free Cargo Ship and started construction on Oracle in York. which I completed and with a few Culture from the turns I was able to get my free Settler as well. I settled Nottingham on the east coast and ran into my next problem, they don't connect, at least not yet.

Since my initial settlement my main 2 cities in London and York have done nothing but produce Wonders and Cargo Ships until I ran out of options that I wanted.
In London I built (in order): Colossus, Great Lighthouse, Hagia Sophia (I got first religion) and Borobudur (to spread the religion to my other 3 cities, I bought a settler for gold, I didnt want to slow down my growth from cargo ships).
In York I built the Oracle followed by all my Cargo Ships.
I stupidly delayed my Granary a bit in both cities while building the first Wonders, which meant that the Cargo Ship from Colossus was idle for 4 turns.

My religion is entirely focused on Production and Gold to speed up my early game as much as possible. I intend to build Markets in all my cities and basically focus 100% on Gold and Production. And I figured ''Just War'' might come in handy since my Religion was created well before anyone else could.
My Pantheon wasn't hugely helpful, but I figured with Maritime Infrastructure the 15% Bonus might actually be a bit meaningful. I even used my Liberty finisher to build a Manufactory, which feels ridiculously stupid, but at the same time, I didn't know what else to use it for and I the early production bonus might help me a lot, a Great Scientist was the second choice I considered.

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After setting up these initial things I built Barracks in my cities and started building as many Galleass as I could. I have a Declaration of Friendship with Brasil and he's funding my fleet. I am currently at war with Babylon, mostly to farm experience since his city doesn't look hugely useful. Especially because I already got Silver from my City-State ally in Bogota. I am also at war with Prague, same deal, farming XP, though I might move the Galleass to Siam and just take him out, his Capital actually looks very attractive. I had to delay these wars a bit because I had sent Cargo Ships to Babylon and Prague because I didn't build my 4th city yet. I am a bit worried that I will run into happiness issues down the line, and I don't really know how to combat it; Naval Tradition will help a bit, but not enough.
Either way, the wars start now, I intend to focus Production and Gold and probably plunder as many Cargo Ships as I can to fund my army, I pray that every single Civ has their capital on the coast. When I do reach Renaissance I hope that the spies can help my so I dont fall behind in technology too much, since I still haven't built a single Library.

 

[lerrocco]

I went a completely different way. First time playing like this.
I decided to open with maritime infrastructure, so opened Liberty, then exploration then MI for the city hammers.
I forward settled Babylon.
Priority was Library and NC. Then granaries. Then comp bows.
Decided to research Longbows first, now on to Navigation and ships.

I decided to take Babylon after he built the colossus. Easy with now upgraded Longbows.

I really should go for China now as she has the luxuries I need.
Northern army to Siam?

I have a DOF with Brasil.. why not?

Took the free Liberty worker, and opened Honor. Captured a worker from Babylon.
I wanted to open Tradition as well, but I bought the gold mine in the end, and now I might not bother to open it.
I planned to build some ancient wonders, to find its not possible, no SoZ, GL.

Babylon cost me a lot of happiness, I was tempted to leave it, but I dont want him at my back when I sail off. The colossus I hope is useful. My cities are all high production and I will soon build a courthouse in Babylon. But China's luxuries are the obvious next step. Siam has great wall, and hes an easy capture just now. And I know where he is.

These sea units are very mobile !

 

[fiddlesticks]

Did everyone else’s cities start with a shrine?

 

[Nizef]

Did everyone else’s cities start with a shrine?

Should start with a Monument and a Shrine for everybody.

 

[Megalou]

Should start with a Monument and a Shrine for everybody.

This was a great big reason for me to start with Liberty rather than Tradition. The second reason was simply that I “desire rapid expansion”, being medieval but having no cities yet. Choosing only Liberty policies instantly gave a worker and a 3rd settler (which has already been pointed out), and from a happiness perspective, three instant cities were possible, although barely and requiring income from cargo ships to buy tiles.

The excruciating border growth constraints were well coupled with my slow growth and limited access to happiness , so that Workers soon had little to do but chopping. I opted against building wonders, since there were so many other needs, but gave a pretty high priority to science (National College, Messenger to the Gods pantheon, Education before the lower half techs).

At the time of the spoiler cut-off I am busy capturing Istanbul with SotLs and a trireme which has returned from exploring. I wanted a nearby 1st victim since I only have 3 cities at home and the 4th, captured one, should be productive. Ottomans was the obvious choice, since they have Notre Dame, Chichen Itza and Hagia Sophia(!) We’ll be one happy bunch I think.

Land troops are lagging behind and I’ve only just completed the first longbowman, heading south.

The free great person from the liberty tree was used for an Academy. At the moment of its foundation, it changed the number of turns left for navigation from 6 to 4, so it seemed quite appropriate. It will only take about 33 turns to earn more beakers than I would’ve done had I chosen the instant technology boost. After liberty I turned to the exploration tree and that’s where I am now, recently starting to cash in the three extra hammers per coastal city. It was kind of satisfying to skip the Oracle for once. I don’t mean to say that those of you who built it made a mistake, just that if I build it 100% of the times something isn’t right. I don’t think I have refrained from going for Oracle since the Germany marathon gotm.

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

It was kind of satisfying to skip the Oracle for once. I don’t mean to say that those of you who built it made a mistake, just that if I build it 100% of the times something isn’t right.

I find myself often doing the same thing when playing civ, although in this case it has considerably value. In my game, finishing tradition, in your case, getting those explo hammers earlier! Still, building it is not free, and I agree there are often more important things to build than wonders.

 

[Megalou]

I find myself often doing the same thing when playing civ, although in this case it has considerably value. In my game, finishing tradition, in your case, getting those explo hammers earlier! Still, building it is not free, and I agree there are often more important things to build than wonders.

I am unable to post screenshots right now, but a stable gave more than the explo. hammers in one of my cities, and an equal amount (3) in one. An exact comparison would of course be impossible, since it would have to take into account which other policies you will also get before me.

Speaking of culture I was happy to ally both Bogota and Prague. Am I thus narrowing the policy gap?

 

[fiddlesticks]

I went with a Liberty start, and on technology I focused on getting workshops up early. Generally I built workshops->granaries->libraries->stables. After teching to machinery for longbowmen, I went education into astronomy and then built Oxford to hit navigation. With ships of the line (5-6) I'm getting good tribute income and buying and building some unit needed for over-land conquest (Beijing at least). Hopefully I find all the civs in good time without having too far to sail units to get to the last capital.

Wonders built so far are Colossus, Notre Dame, Oracle (London), and Machu Pichu (CS quest) in York.

Istanbul just fell after the turn 200 cutoff, and it had 5 useful wonders. Thanks Suleiman!

 

[lerrocco]

T70. I thought to leave Istanbul for later, when he had accumulated wonders...

Siam was easy...

China..eek. that's what not exploring gets you. I actually built a scout at last. I have been offered a peace deal by China which includes Shanghai.. I am tempted to take it. Go an attack Ankara and Istanbul and come back. It might take me more than 10 turns to get Beijing, I already fought off her first army.

As in the last domination game my armies are mismatched.. my bigger army is currently in the North, it may be batter served in the south.

I lost all my good trades, but Have enough gold for upgrades. I get Astronomy in 7 turns, then I can upgrade and explore the map.

 

[jrwh]

The biggest thing that swayed me to Liberty is the GS at the end shaving ~6 turns off Navigation, which should be the game-winning tech. I'll be able to bulb that in the next couple turns.

One thing I did differently than most, it seems, is move across the island to settle. Both the iron tiles you can see from initial turn scouting are over there, and I want my cities on the same side of the island for trade routes. I figured I'd put the third city somewhere by the gold, but I found the silver with a spearman just before I was about to settle, and decided to plant greedily for both luxes instead. Which means I had to spend gold buying the tiles as well since both are third ring.

I wanted pasture culture for my pantheon but it was taken. I went with shrine culture instead. Plantation culture would've given me one more total culture in my empire, but I liked having the shrine culture immediately, and having it spread out equally to all my cities for a little extra border growth.

The plan was feed capital with trade routes asap, use the third route for gold and science, get NC and university asap, and use scientist from completing Liberty to bulb Navigation asap, win the game from there. Spamming some Galleass until then.

Spoiler :

 

[raider980]

Starting out I figured this game would hopefully be won with Ships of the Line. Since they would need iron, I wanted to find the close iron and make sure to settle it before any AI could. After moving the extra beginning units I spied a Gold lux that would be within the capital if I moved north next to the mountain. Since that was one of the options from the initial screenshot, and since we would need a lot of happiness this game for the conquering, seeing the Gold sealed the deal; I settled next to the mountain for a 3-lux capital. The second settler moved to found a city on the east coast to get the second iron that was discovered.

After exploring a bit I saw that there appeared to be only 3 sources of iron in our vicinity so a 3-city NC Tradition empire was planned. Six Ships of the Line should do for starters and I beelined Navigation to start the conquering. I mistakenly thought that I would get 5 Social Policies to start, but it turned out to only be three. I may have gone Liberty if I had realized that but Tradition worked out anyway since I didn't actally start the wars for quite some time - and as of T200, I still haven't. (For some reason I used the starting worker to explore NW; I guess I was used to them not being able to do much in the way of improving tiles in the very beginning due to not having the tech to do the improvements; not thinking about the fact that we already had all the Ancient and Classical techs. And after he discovered the 3rd iron, he headed back and ran smack into a new barb camp and was captured. So then I had to build a CB to go get him back; that delayed me quite a bit.)

In the beginning I debated about whether to take the bonus to wonders in Tradition and the Pantheon wonder bonus since there were many available from the start. But I decided against it because I figured the AI would possibly start building wonders from jump; especially the good ones. It turns out I was correct; several of them must have started wonder building quickly because wonders started flying off the board early and rapidly. I didn't even attempt any wonders; I'll just steal them all. Did not get a religion; I only got like 4th or 5th pantheon and there were no faith pantheons left so I took God King.

Its T200 and I'm about to get Astronomy so the wars will begin soon. I am building one Galleas because I don't really have anything else to build in Nottingham, but wish I would have thought earlier to build more to upgrade to SotL quicker than building those. I did build a trireme fairly early and have discovered 7 of the 8 other Civs and only one does not have a coastal capital. So I guess I'll build some Longbowmen after I have my navy up and running. I plan on two navies; one to go west and one to go east; saving the landlocked Civ for last. This should be a fun ending.

 

[sebtanic]

Pre-game, I decided to prioritize growth, then science. I beelined Navigation, with a quick detour to Machinery just after researching Astronomy. Machinery was only 2 turns at that point so I figured it was worth it to get Workshops in all cities before churning out the SOTLs.

Unlike everyone else I went 3 in Liberty for the free settler. So my 3 cities were all settled more or less at the same time, and are almost equal in size. London doesn't even have fish since I wanted it to be close to the salt. I made up for that with trade routes later.

I didn't realize until after I finished the Liberty tree that Exploration was already available. I took a GS from the Liberty finisher and planted it. I figured the 8 beakers would add up to a lot of science over the course of the game. After Liberty, I went 2 in Exploration for extra production like most others did.

Since I only have 4 Iron in my land, once I get Navigation my first target will be Montezuma, who has 6 more. I don't want to build more cities because happiness is kind of scarce. And the CS don't seem to have Iron either.

Only wonder I got was Oracle (t55).

And just saying: If those are small continents, I want to see what the big ones look like...!

 

[zxcvbob]

This thread is used to discuss the game's opening decisions and strategies through the first 100 or so turns (in this case roughly on turn 200). Here you can post questions related to the game and share your achievements/anger/frustration/victories while you play.

- What did you think about before starting the game, what was your approach to this game?
- Where did you settle and what did you build first?
- How did the terrain and map settings affect your early decisions?
- What were your initial priorities?
- What tech path did you follow and why?
- What Social Policies did you choose?
- What Wonders did you try to get and did you get them?
- Did you get a religion? What religious beliefs did you pick?

The game is moving fast enough I'm on turn 295 (170) and it's time to pick an ideology and I don't know which one to take. I *really* like Freedom for Civil Society, Universal Suffrage, Statue of Liberty, and Treaty Organization, even with I'm playing a domination game. And if I take that one first, the AI's probably won't, so none of them will have the policy that boosts city strength. But there's good tenets in Autocracy and Order too. Anyway...

First thing I thought was with a small-continents map almost all the capitals should be coastal and can be captured with ships-of-the-line and privateers. So I beelined Astronomy to start exploring and then Navigation. I don't have a lot of iron but I have enough for a few SotLs, and it doesn't take all that many. I'll find more iron as I take cities. My first victim was Babylon just because he's close. And I've taken 2 more but that's beyond the scope of this thread. Let me take a screenshot of my core cities and edit out the minimap because that's the only thing that would be a spoiler...

Initially I sent my spearmen in all directions to see what they could see, then settled in place with the settler that was 2 tiles away from the mountain. That way London can build Neuschwanstein eventually. I sent my other settler southeast. The first thing I built in London was the Great Lighthouse.

Social policies were full Tradition, then the first 2 or 3 policies in Exploration, then opened Rationalism. I'm trying not to build too many wonders. I did build GL, Hanging Gardens, and Sistine Chapel. I got beat to Oracle and Taj Mahal (Taj Mahal by one turn) I got a pantheon; took God-King. I did not get a religion; the last one went when I was just a few turns away from getting a prophet.

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

because that's the only thing that would be a spoiler...

Strictly speaking, the location of coal can also be considered a spoiler. For a science game, if I know there will be coal, I would probably go Industrialization before Scientific Theory to get an early ideology, and help build my public schools faster, if I know there is no coal, I'll definitely go public schools first (for a really quick science game, it might anyway be better to go public schools first, and then ideally buy them, but I digress...).

 

[zxcvbob]

Sorry about that. I've edited the pic to remove resources and tile yields.