TSG 279 Opening Actions

[vadalaz]

This thread is used to discuss the game's opening decisions and strategies through the first 100 or so turns. Here you can post questions related to the game and share your achievements/anger/frustration/victories while you play.

Quick links: Announcement thread | After actions

- What did you think about before starting the game, what was your approach to this game?
- How did the Samurai affect your early game?
- What tech path did you follow and why?
- What Social Policies did you choose?
- Did you get a religion? What religious beliefs did you pick?

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

I couldn't wait to start with this one so, as usual, I rushed through the first 100 turns . I feel I did not make the best use of my samurai.I wondered whether it could be strong enough to take Persepolis on its own, supported by maybe one or two archers, but when some 40 turns I thought I would try, Persia had built a wall, and an Immortal smashed out of the gates into my hapless archer. I also only got 1 tribute, from Tyre.

I did rush a shrine, and took the fishing boat pantheon. Backed up with some late faith ruins (on Dido's island! My Samurai just got there ahead of her scout) and an on-and-off ally status with Lhasa, I secured a religion (tithe, religious community). I attempted a number of wonders, but, rushing through the game I did not properly pay attention. I was same-turned on Temple of Artemis by Dido, which was my own mistake since I could have seen her building it, and declared war). Also a same-turn on Great Lighthouse (capital) in a far-away land, that felt a little unlucky. However, I did get Hanging Gardens, Mausoleum and Oracle in expands, and a late Stonehenge in the capital. It was a city state quest for Tyre, so I thought I would try it.

Currently, at T100, my game is a little bit slow, and I am researching the wrong technology. I know I'm supposed to go for early science in a diplo game, but with coastal games I am often tempted by Colossus (hope I won't lose it), and then workshops are not that far away. At least I got the NC out before turn 100.

 

[raider980]

Its been a wild and eventful first 100 turns. Planned on trying to get to Optics asap to put the Samauri to good use building fishing boats on the Whales and Fish. I was off to a good start by getting Sailing in a Ruin. But then I found the Faith Wonder to the NE so started a settler at pop 3. It was completed a turn before I got my Liberty settler so had 3 cities pretty early; and had the unhappiness to go with it. Persia is way too close for comfort so I had to build some defense and then my Samauri was relegated to settler escort duty.

On T20 my scout died to 2 hits from a barb warrior, that seemed fishy; those were some seriously strong barbs. T28 I stole Darius' unescorted settler. Darius sued for peace after 10 turns but I declined. Then disaster! I lost my stolen worker/settler to a Persian warrior and the next turn he took out my barely injured archer; why are my units so weak? Then Darius tried to sneak a settler and unescorted worker between my two cities to go to the south coast. I took the worker but couldn't catch the settler, but it was captured by barbs anyway lol.

Spoiler T52 :

Everything is going wrong this game. Lost another worker to barbs, Tyre destroyed its own barb camp mission a turn before my Samurai arrived and lost the GLH by one turn, whew. For good news, finally got around to using the Samauri to build work boats - and wow, they're completed instantly, didn't remember that, nice!

I peaced out with Persia when a Pike came within view, darn that's an early Pike. Darius really wanted a southern city - he got another settler past me, not even sure how; I didn't see it until it was a couple tiles south of my borders - my closed borders that extend all the way across the continent; he must have snuck through just before my borders expanded enough to cut him off dagnabit, I'm not going to be able to stop him.

Spoiler T80 Sneaky Settler :

Its now T102, I have a nice religion with Culture from Pastures, Tithe and Pagodas so far. But Persia stole my southern land so I can't build a city among the offshore whales and fish - at least until I remove the usurper. Darius sealed his fate with that move, I was going to let him off the hook since I have a good 4 city NC and spots for two more good cities as soon as I evict him. As long as Dido doesn't come knocking, I think I'll take Persepolis too while I'm at it, its a pretty nice city.

Spoiler T102 :

 

[ForkOfSpite]

R.I.P. Samurai. Sent to Davy Jones's Locker on Turn 51 You never once complained about the lack of iron. Alas, perhaps that led to the fateful final mission. Today, we celebrate your life and your accomplishments:
- One tribute
- One worker steal
- One tile pillage
- One fishing boat

Was looking through the strategy page last week and read the Guide to Playing Small on Deity by adwcta, so I decided to follow my Big Liberty attempt in the last TSG with a small piety attempt. Didn't matter that there was no obvious faith pantheon. Didn't matter that, at the time I chose my first social policy (Turn 5), I only met 0.5 of the three ideal conditions listed in the guide - the poor dirt. Didn't matter that this isn't deity - should be easier, yes? Albeit, much, much slower - I'm hoping for a Turn 350 win but wouldn't be surprised for 400+.

The point of the strategy is to master AI diplomacy to manipulate what you need to win a diplomatic victory on the first (or second) vote. Spread your religion to a neighbor that doesn't found. Vote that AI host, and let that AI propose the world religion. Give gifts when necessary to help ensure friendly relations. Pay for wars (particularly against other civs trying to spread its religion). Fall far, far behind in tech to get the science discounts (while focusing on other resources such as gold and faith). Propose a popular world congress resolution or two for more diplomatic boosts. Pass scholars in residence (buy votes if necessary) to further boost science. Steal techs and use city state coups. Manipulate AI ideology selection to get the majority to all select one - get World Ideology passed and switch to it.

Primary purpose of the early game is to setup faith generation, religion, and start spreading to neighbors. Keep your expansions small so that'll convert on their own. Get trade routes up for science and gold. Expand away from AIs to avoid diplomatic problems. If possible, try to setup a future culture city (GWAM guilds and Hermitage) and a future science center (National College) - they can be the same city. Explore the map to meet the other AIs. Open Piety and take Organized Religion to kickstart the faith generation. Libraries and National College aren't needed - those come later. Cities should still be small when aqueducts are available. Get those up and start growing then.

With that ...
The Art of Falling Behind (Turns 0-100)

Spoiler :

I'm not even far behind, so that feels like a fail. The Turn 100 demographics update was technology - I'm last but only two techs behind first.

Early exploration - found a culture ruin on Turn 4, so I have to choose the first social policy on Turn 5. No idea where any AIs are. No idea where any city states are. No faith pantheon. No idea where I'll expand. No worries - open Piety (god of the sea will be good - hopefully being two difficulties below deity makes up for the lack of a faith pantheon). Samurai finds Kabul soon after that - easy gold (tribute)! Scout finds Tyre (sadly, just having the world's strongest army is not quite enough to tribute). Continuing north, finds a tech to finish sailing - guess it's time to go straight into Optics (that's the quickest luxury at this point since I don't have a worker). Then, the scout finds Fuji and a pop ruin. Shrine just finished - one more turn to finish the monument and then start a settler. While building, I was already considering One With Nature, but that's an easy choice when God of the Sea is taken as the first pantheon on Turn 17. I take One With Nature on Turn 24 (second pantheon).

Meanwhile, I find a Persian scout near Fuji and then Persepolis not long after. Looks like I'm breaking another of the guide's principles - expanding toward the AI (not directly toward, but it's certainly contested). Samurai makes its way up there and steals a Persian worker on Turn 28 (plus a farm pillage)! I settle Osaka during the war, and Darius sends two warriors and an archer after it before asking for peace. I accept, and sure enough, bright red diplo modifier for coveted land. Darius got a bit of revenge by settling where I wanted my third city, so I made a nonsensical expansion near Tyre. At least it's coastal (Fuji isn't because I really wanted to settle next to a food tile and Fuji).

Samurai goes after a barb camp for Kabul. Slams into it once. Barb reinforcements arrive - didn't think it would be difficult, but I had to retreat (into water). Swam around a bit and really, really should have gone back to land. Instead, for speed purposes (rough terrain south of the capital), I stayed in the water. Almost all the way back when a random barb galley kills it. Immediately, I drop to the last place military (I had a scout and two triremes at that point, I think). Darius is still mad. Appease him a bit with 5 gold per turn. Later, I give him 5 iron. Didn't think that would be enough, but all green diplo modifiers now. All three of us are best buds (Pedro being the third).

Darius never got a pantheon, so I converted Persepolis (and Kabul). I think pressure should get his other cities fairly soon, but if I need to, I can send another missionary. Pedro built Stonehenge eventually and founded the next turn - guess I'm not supposed to convert his cities. Dido's also nearby - she has a pantheon but hasn't founded yet. Second missionary (after two mosques) swam northeast to city states - lucky a barb galley didn't pass by. It has converted Cape Town, but will need to be careful of barbs to get to Mombasa. Tokyo finally converted the turn after I bought the missionary (and I've since bought a mosque for it, too).

Social Policies
Piety - Opener
Piety - Organized Religion
Patronage - Opener
Piety - Mandate of Heaven
Piety - Theocracy
Piety - Religious Tolerance (Writing this reminds me that I need to send a couple trade routes to Pedro for God of the Sea. Unfortunately, I'm approaching the "grow" phase.)

Religion
One With Nature
Pilgrimage
Mosques
(likely will use prophet from finishing piety to enhance)

World Wonders
Mausoleum of Halicarnassus (capital Turn 100 - didn't have anything left to build that contributed to the overall strategy; even has a library already)
(in progress) Oracle in Osaka - started as a 28-turn build, but again, nothing relevant left to build (no library though - and this is my future science city). Chopping forests has helped, I might actually get it.

Turn 100 Screenshot:

Spoiler :

 

[Megalou]

- What did you think about before starting the game, what was your approach to this game?

It's an interesting game where the most interesting thing is priorities, because on emperor and with the starting samurai we can excel in any field we want - food, shields, culture, faith, expansion. To start with, I wanted to use the coasts both for food and fishing boat bonuses.

Currently, at T100, my game is a little bit slow, and I am researching the wrong technology. I know I'm supposed to go for early science in a diplo game, but with coastal games I am often tempted by Colossus (hope I won't lose it)

@The_Black_Vegetable , yes I went after Colossus too after Optics was done. I did find that researching 3 expensive techs - Optics, Iron Working and Philosophy - made the subsequent cheap techs exceedingly cheap once it was time for them!

I didn't put a huge emphasis on faith after acquiring God of the Sea (production from fishing boats) pretty easily via a 20 faith hut. But after a while, missing out on Stonehenge and having no religious natural wonders to settle, I decided to send the samurai together with an archer down to the Lhasa area to clear out a camp for them. And that's when the samurai was killed by two archers.

- How did the Samurai affect your early game?

I already mentioned its unexpected demise on turn 78. It was attacked while embarked by two barbarian archers. The first one took 46 hp, and the second one apparently 54 or more. At the memorial, what deeds could we look back on from the days of this shiny, god-like entity? I used him first to bully Persia, although the worker yield was very poor. I took Pasargadae in a peace deal, rather than copper. I know from dreary experience that taking over enemy expos early can lead to happiness issues, but for two reasons I took Pasargadae anyway. Firstly, it claimed several cotton tiles and was nicely situated on the coast. Secondly, I was getting on good terms with Tyre and ready for the happiness cost.
Naturally, the samurai was then used for fishing boats. You all know about the juicy position at the southern tip of our continent...slurp...which the samurai actually improved before the capital's two bonus tiles. The samurai then swam up to the capital before unfortunately meeting its death in the south before getting a chance to make fishing boats for my 2 western towns. Ah well, work boats are pretty cheap.

- What tech path did you follow and why?

As mentioned, there was focus on three expensive techs - Optics, Iron Working and Philosophy. The rationale for delaying Education was that I had to save some money for buying universities anyway - and of course IW + Colossus will hopefully help infrastructure. National college was finished on turn 96.

- What Social Policies did you choose?

A smooth ride through the tradition tree, thanks to an early culture hut and friendship with Kabul. I could not imagine doing without the fast border expansion.

- Did you get a religion? What religious beliefs did you pick?

Not yet a least. You can see here on turn 98 how I struggle to clear that barb camp for Lhasa after the samurai was killed:

And here comes the full home area map. There has to be another city too, of course - I have one free monument left too claim since Pasargadae didn't get one (although it did get the free aqueduct). Normally I would have settled Osaka one step NW for more productive tiles in the long run, but I wanted to make contact with Lhasa through our borders.

 

[ForkOfSpite]

why are my units so weak?

I thought the same. Doesn't explain your scout, but maybe the iron deficit played a role for the samurai? Just a theory - there was no iron deficit alert, so maybe that's not the explanation.

 

[sebtanic]

Like @BlackVegetable I also had to blitz the 1st 100 turns last night

It went good, I DOWed Persia soonish but realized too late that we need Iron for the Samurai to be at full strength. Didn't expect a 50% penalty!

I think I got one worker from him, then decided to sue for peace.
As for pantheon I thought hard about Gods of the Sea, but decided an all-game 10% food bonus would probably be better so I took Fertility Rites. No idea if I'm right, my southern city would have had +5 early production but I'm not sure if I was even aware of that location at the time.

I only settled 3 cities so far because of happiness cap. @BlackVegetable how did you manage happiness? I see you are allied with Tyre, that probably helps but I don't have the cash for it. Only quest from them right now is to get a GG which I won't until I am at war with Persia again.

I prioritized growth as usual in a science game. I built ToA and then some comp bows now, since I have a feeling Persia might attack me soon.

Mid term I want the Persian capital and, if happiness permits, the city they placed next to Mt Fuji. Their capital is the priority though, since it's in a great location, no rough terrain in the way, plus they have GLH.

Since we're Japan I'm tempted to try a military diplomacy win.

 

[Megalou]

Spread your religion to a neighbor that doesn't found. Vote that AI host, and let that AI propose the world religion.

I like the idea of doing something useful with the host vote even when we are too weak to become hosts ourselves, but aren't there many other things this AI might choose to propose?

 

[ForkOfSpite]

I like the idea of doing something useful with the host vote even when we are too weak to become hosts ourselves, but aren't there many other things this AI might choose to propose?

Yes, but in adwcta's trial runs, the AI proposed the religion by the third proposal at the latest. I've never attempted this strategy, so hope that happens for me. However, since this is "only" emperor, I have a reasonable shot at Forbidden Palace which would make up the two votes lost if no world religion is passed.

The purpose to voting an AI isn't just because you can't host yourself (only need to host yourself for the UN to get the extra votes). Even if you already have enough city states to make yourself host for the industrial and modern congresses, the guide advises to vote someone else so that AI will take the diplomatic penalties associated with world religion and world ideology proposals. Essentially, it's a guide for an alternative, viable deity strategy. This one manipulates AI diplomacy rather than (for example) AI military tactics. I'm hoping that I can take this one to increase my win rate for generic, random, deity games without rerolling the map. My current win rate for those is probably about 1%. I get frustrated early with lack of something on the map and quit, but part of the "ideal conditions" for this strategy is poor dirt (but with a decent faith pantheon).

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

there was no iron deficit alert, so maybe that's not the explanation

You do start with -1 iron, so expect there to be a penalty, but I found my Samurai still pretty effective on flat terrain. Plus you can get shock 3 pretty quickly, making up for that loss of strength.

how did you manage happiness? I see you are allied with Tyre, that probably helps but I don't have the cash for it.

Well Tyre is 11 happiness (dyes, jewelry, +3 happiness from mercantile CS friendship), and in the screenshot I am at 0 . So without allying Tyre that fourth city would have been painful, and I would have had to scramble to get circus maximus up, which is painful to do early (NC is hard enough!). I got quite lucky with Tyre: trade route quest plus a quest for Stonehenge, which I was very surprised to get (I don't recall the exact turn, but it might have been around 80/90).

 

[sebtanic]

You do start with -1 iron, so expect there to be a penalty, but I found my Samurai still pretty effective on flat terrain. Plus you can get shock 3 pretty quickly, making up for that loss of strength.


Well Tyre is 11 happiness (dyes, jewelry, +3 happiness from mercantile CS friendship), and in the screenshot I am at 0 . So without allying Tyre that fourth city would have been painful, and I would have had to scramble to get circus maximus up, which is painful to do early (NC is hard enough!). I got quite lucky with Tyre: trade route quest plus a quest for Stonehenge, which I was very surprised to get (I don't recall the exact turn, but it might have been around 80/90).

Yeah I was allied with them for a short time too, one culture quest and there must have been another one that I don't remember. Didn't last long though.

 

[zxcvbob]

Turn 100:

I just finished national college and now am working on Oracle. My city by Mt Fuji is trying to build Petra. Next I need to build another settler or two, and annex Persepolis. The Samurai was very helpful in the early game. I tributed one CS early, and I declared war on Persia as soon as I met Darius's scout. Because of the strategic resource penalty, I was not able to kill a freakin' scout in one hit (it took about 3), and the samurai was about evenly matched or slightly weaker than a full-strength Immortal. But as we both took damage, the samurai beat the immortal -- barely. I stole 2 workers and a settler from Persia. Then tried to use the settler-now-worker to lure the archer out of the city, but an immortal appeared out of nowhere and captured the worker instead of the archer. I wasn't quite able to kill the immortal, but I got the worker back eventually when I captured the city. I think I used 4 archers and the samurai to take Persepolis; one of the archers died but that's an acceptable loss (a concept I have trouble with) I'm friends with Brazil, and Pedro doesn't seem to mind that I killed Darius. I also need to do some more exploring.

Tech path was Pottery, Sailing, Archery, Mining, Bronze, Optics, then Writing, or at least something like that (I didn't write it down.) I researched both bronze working and optics a little sooner than I normally would. So I built the Great Lighthouse because why not. Social policies were straight Tradition; now I'll probably open Patronage next.

 

[sebtanic]

Turn 100:
View attachment 750981
I just finished national college and now am working on Oracle. My city by Mt Fuji is trying to build Petra. Next I need to build another settler or two, and annex Persepolis. The Samurai was very helpful in the early game. I tributed one CS early, and I declared war on Persia as soon as I met Darius's scout. Because of the strategic resource penalty, I was not able to kill a freakin' scout in one hit (it took about 3), and the samurai was about evenly matched or slightly weaker than a full-strength Immortal. But as we both took damage, the samurai beat the immortal -- barely. I stole 2 workers and a settler from Persia. Then tried to use the settler-now-worker to lure the archer out of the city, but an immortal appeared out of nowhere and captured the worker instead of the archer. I wasn't quite able to kill the immortal, but I got the worker back eventually when I captured the city. I think I used 4 archers and the samurai to take Persepolis; one of the archers died but that's an acceptable loss (a concept I have trouble with) I'm friends with Brazil, and Pedro doesn't seem to mind that I killed Darius. I also need to do some more exploring.

Tech path was Pottery, Sailing, Archery, Mining, Bronze, Optics, then Writing, or at least something like that (I didn't write it down.) I researched both bronze working and optics a little sooner than I normally would. So I built the Great Lighthouse because why not. Social policies were straight Tradition; now I'll probably open Patronage next.

Well done for taking out the Persians so soon!

Spoiler ~t150 Spoiler :

It took me until turn 153 to capture their capital, since I waited for Crossbows. They had a sizeable army and did fight back, but I didn't incur any losses fortunately.

Persia still has 2 expos left, and I am currently deliberating whether to take them out or not.

On the plus side, they built GLH, Chichen Itza, and Mausoleum for me in Persepolis

 

[catwhoorg]

OK, so I actually took notes this time.

Found Persia pretty early so knew I was going to war. Initial Builds were Scout, archer, worker, settler. Settled 2nd City West coats right by the marble.
Persia then settled South of Kyoto and Brazil North of Osaka (to be dealt with later).

optics 39 so my samurai could make boats.
bronze working 54, revealing the close iron
Construction 75
Iron working 89.


Went tradition, pumped out 4 total archers, but did not start a war until I had construction, basic archers versus Immortals is not a good plan.

War started Turn 78, just focused on defeating units first.I did construct the Terracotta army on 92, making my force 8 Longbows and 2 samurai (plus 2 scouts). Quite formidable for the time.
Captured Parsagadae turn 102, and nabbed the Persian other new city on 107 with a temporary peace. I needed some time to heal and use the samurai to build boats.

Feeling pretty good about the situation, but probably 20+ turns behind the elite guys.

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

I did construct the Terracotta army on 92, making my force 8 Longbows and 2 samurai (plus 2 scouts).

Nice idea about the Terracotta! I'm not sure I've ever attempted to build it, but having two Samurai could be quite strong I imagine.

 

[Rhodro]

Not a great start.
Lost my first settler to a barb galley, i wrongly remembered they are 3 movement, in reality they are 4 movement. I used 500 gold to buy a settler to compensate
I attempted hanging gardens, lost to persia.
pantheon is hammer from boats, but no religion yet. All hapiness buildings are taken and hapiness from temples too. It will probably be a production religion.
Im probably just gonna focus on exploration to try and meet the other civs and then for printing press.

Policies i have full tradition and consulates in patronage. I did get oracle.

Spoiler :