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TSG13 After Action Report

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Game Of The Month' started by leif erikson, May 30, 2011.

  1. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

    Feb 2, 2003
    Plymouth, MA
    Hi everyone and welcome to the TSG13 After Action Report thread. In this thread you can post the results of your game. Please state victory date and score (preferably in the post title), as recorded in the Hall of Fame, and the most important: your path to glory!

    Please use the Civ5 game submission page to submit your final, first play through, .Civ5Save file, saved AFTER the victory ceremony if you were not conquered (using the "Lemme play one more turn" feature.).

    Players are encouraged to provide feedback on the game. Some players like to replay the game, and although we will not record the results from a replay, you can still post your new experiences (please state if the game is a replay). The game will not be closed as such, but after two weeks, the results will be compiled, and will not necessarily be updated with reports coming in after the closing date.
  2. Monthar

    Monthar Chieftain

    Mar 28, 2004
    Elmendorf, Tx
    Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
    Date submitted: 2011-05-31
    Reference number: 24305
    Your name: Monthar
    Game status: Diplomacy Loss
    Game date: 1935AD
    Turns played: 355
    Base score: 469
    Final score: 469
    Time played: 4:03:00
    Submitted save: TSG13_Lost_Diplo.Civ5Save
    Renamed file: Monthar_C501301.Civ5Save

    Most of my write-up is in the in progress thread, so I won't repeat it here. When I started up the game again, I played a few turns before Arabia took two of my four cities. He took the city with oil then the city with horses. This left me with my capital that was working aluminum and my city that was settled on the iron next the the mountain.

    I still had some hope of building up to retake those cities, until I saw the UN go up.
  3. TyfoonTurk

    TyfoonTurk Chieftain

    Feb 7, 2011
    Played the Legalism Abuse Strategy as posted here


    Got 4 cities with Wats at turn 90. So far so good.
    However, only got to the Apollo Program at turn 219.
    Finished at turn 321.

    I didn't made good use of the after Wat strategy, which is either making use of science by city states or chasing or chasing Democracy for extra Scientists.

    However, fun game.

    Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
    Game status: Science Victory
    Game date: 1901AD
    Turns played: 321
    Base score: 962
    Final score: 1503
    Time played: 3:13:00
  4. StrideColossus

    StrideColossus Chieftain

    Oct 30, 2010
    Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
    Date submitted: 2011-05-31
    Reference number: 24307
    Your name: StrideColossus
    Game status: Science Victory
    Game date: 1997AD
    Turns played: 417
    Base score: 757
    Final score: 912
    Time played: 7:25:00
    Submitted save: Ramkhamhaeng_0417 AD-1997.Civ5Save
    Renamed file: StrideColossus_C501301.Civ5Save

    Way way from a good game but a win nevertheless, despite my attempts to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory at the end.

    Didn't try any clever tactics and played 'old school' by building an empire rather than conquering one from someone else. Had to accept a humiliating peace deal with the Eqyptians that were racing away in order to complete the last bit of the spaceship (the bit I thought I'd already made!)

    Was a good fun game, thanks.

    Lots of tedious notes for those that enjoy reading others mistakes/thoughts:

    Spoiler :


    Settle 1 NW for slightly better resources after checking nothing better with warrior.
    Start with Mining for the gems, then Pottery and Writing, aiming for Great Library.
    Build scout then worker which should dove-tail nicely with the techs.
    After that Animal Husbandry for the numerous cows and Sailing for the pearls.

    Scout heads west and finds ruins for a map, capital is on an inland sea.
    Start GL in capital.
    Meet Rome whose borders we could see via a map from ruins.
    Also meet America.
    Get Masonry from ruins, nice, handy for the marble we can see and all that marsh to the east.
    Seems to be plenty of room at this point, only met 3 civs, perhaps we're on a continent?
    Identify 4 good city spots and decide we go for expansion after the GL.
    SP - Tradition, Liberty (considered Aristocracy), Collective Rule.

    Decide will go for Wheels and Horseback Riding as there are horses E and W, rather than waiting for Bronze and Iron Working.
    Scout takes out a half-dead brute in a camp near a yet unmet CS, can't return until we actually meet them though, keep it then.
    Free settler heads to the horse spot to the E, realise later there are TWO horses there doh.

    Complete GL, choose Philosophy.
    Build another settler then Oracle.

    First GA.

    Found third city also on inland sea for marble and whales, and yet more cows.
    Start BW and IW.
    Capture another worker from a camp, nice.

    Complete Oracle and choose Legalism to expand new cities, discount Piety cos we're aiming for a science victory.
    2 x iron W of capital on outside coast, no more :(
    Losing gold now, Trapping next for trading posts.
    Consolidate then fourth city on iron.
    Then maybe more cities east towards China, who has already established city on pinch-point to rest of the continent.
    Citizenship for Representation later and maybe Meritocracy.

    Meet Egypt and India but not sure where, guessing on other half of the continent.

    Change plan and settle fourth city E for another gems and 3 x spices for trade.
    Bee-line Chivalry for our unique unit.

    Rome declares war, didn't see that coming, he was friendly.
    We have 3 x warrior, a horse and 2 x archers.
    He has roughly the same but also allied Venice.
    Was building walls in eastern border cities anyway.
    Get a GS to buld Chivalry.
    Kill most of his units without loss and he offers straight peace.

    Found fifth city for the iron.
    We are second in score.
    +14GPT +20CPT
    Plan is markets and sell luxuries for city states.

    Adopt Patronage.

    Start Porcelain Tower in capital for another science wonder.
    Finally connect iron, bit late now to be honest.

    Bucharest first CS allied, good move cos Rome attacks again next turn.
    CS does a good job but situation tricky in marble city, kill most of his units only losing one horse.

    Meet Japan.
    Rome offers straight peace again, accept.
    Unhappy now, building colloseums in main cities.

    Adopt Philanthropy, ally Seoul for incense and also borders Rome.
    Ally Florence later, 3 x cultural CS.
    +56GPT +61CPT

    Complete Porcelain Tower, bulb Astronomy.
    Start Wat in capital, almost complete in other cities.
    Get a GS for Navigation.

    Rome attacks AGAIN, Seoul kicks his arse.
    Stat Oxford in capital.
    Gathering cash for CS bribes and upgrades, then on offensive?
    We have no catapults though and no more iron, hmmm.
    Again he offers peace for G and GPT and we accept.
    Adopt Rationalism later.
    +77GPT +92CPT

    Another GA.
    Start Chemistry for cannons so we have some barrage.
    Complete Oxford.
    Realise Stockholm had x8 iron duh!
    Adopt Trade Unions and get a measly +4GPT improvement WTF, am I missing something?

    Washington declares on Rome and we move in, he notices troops and we admit we're NOT passing through.
    Stupid Egyptian scout sitting on the most strategic point not doing anything - get out of the bloody way.
    We attack along west coast of the inland sea, Rome attacks marble city.
    Get GG who joins the fun.

    Rome offers peace again - no dice.
    Take Antium and puppet, naughty Rome not improved the x2 whales!
    Cannons on the way for Rome itself.
    Poor scout killed on auto-explore in the sea.
    Kill a Roman GG who was sitting in the sea for some reason.
    Start National College in capital, should almost certainly have built libraries earlier.
    Adopt Secularism.
    +167SCI +56GPT +114CPT

    Rome falls.
    Workers connecting two parts of the empire.
    Aiming for Scientific Theory.
    Get another GG which we use use for another GA.
    Still in second place.

    Take and puppet Cumae, Rome is out, ta ra.
    Ally Singapore, now x6 CS allies, x4 cultural x2 maritime, would like Venice as well but they hate our guts.
    America declares next turn FFS.
    Only has minutemen and some old trash, wipe most of them out with a couple of losses.
    Japan comes and tells us we're weak and is now hostile, denounces us next turn WTF!?
    Complete Sci Theory - no coal. This was to prove a real problem later on.
    America offers peace later and we accept, need to consolidate again.

    Adopt Free Thought as we have a lot of trading posts now, workers converting farms in Roman lands.
    Upgrade elephants to cavalry.
    Heading for Rifling.

    Japan attacks our ally Singapore, too far away / risky to help, he gives up later after losing several units.
    Adopt Scholacism to help science.

    Electricity comes in and we have x8 aluminium next to the capital already mined, nice.
    Start Railroad so workers have something to do.
    Struggling for happiness and can't make any deals, only Arabia friendly now, start Circus Maximus in capital.
    Egypt enters Modern era!

    Ally Venice (finally), hopefully they'll stop fighting their enemies Seoul as I'm tired of watching them slug it out.
    Denounced by China - whoops, they were protecting Venice, tough.
    Start Flight, focussing on defence now.

    Egypt complete Manhattan eek!
    Cultural Diplomacy improves our happiness from +1 to +11, should have done that MUCH earlier.
    Another personality flip, Egypt was friendly and suddenly declares - what did I do?
    Attacks the AI's favourite target - marble city.
    CS help to decimate his cannons and infantry.
    He asks for silly peace (all my cash and all my resources!), get lost.
    On the contrary we are on the offensive for an Egyptian city on MY inland sea.
    Take it a few turns later and puppet.
    Enter Modern era a few turns later.
    Won't accept peace though at any price, he really doesn't like us.

    Another wave with a tank this time, just picking him off.

    Adopt Meritocracy, mainly cos never tried it before.
    Singapore finally falls awww.

    Adopt Order.
    Researching technologies for production/food/research bonuses but avoiding space ones, don't want to give game away.
    We also have Globalisation soon and cultural victory as back-ups.
    Stupidly lose a Frigate that was auto-exploring. That's twice now.
    Use a GE for Christo Redentor.
    +704SCI +56GPT +164CPT

    Egypt completes Apollo, we are not even close!
    Completed RR network and delete a few workers.
    For reasons of OCD decide don't like long, expensive road along west of inland sea and start removing it, breaking trade routes!
    Thought we had road on east side, we don't! Worker rushes over to patch things up.
    Should probably have just built harbours.

    Now the coal problem really kicks in: realise can't build nuclear plants or spaceship factory without a normal factory.
    Solar plants only good in deserts, and hydro only on rivers, damn damn.
    But still dither around without attempting to get coal.
    Egypt builds SS cockpit!
    +734SCI +66GPT +165CPT

    Start Apollo.
    Consider attacking America for more gold but would probably screw what relationships we have.
    Arabia also completes Apollo.

    Eventually complete a horrible deal with Arabia to get coal.
    Start factory in main production city and will buy in capital shortly.
    Egypt nukes the two Chinese cities close to us and takes their capital!
    Move military to east as that's where the threat is going to come from.
    GM gives us the cash to buy factory.
    Two cities will build SS parts, switching other cities to gold focus / wealth.
    Should probably have done this some time ago as we don't need all the CS we have.
    No need for more culture, can't get that victory now I don't think.
    Don't need the science bonus as we've almost researched everything we need.
    Could have saved cash been using for bribes to buy factories and other production buildings.
    Realise not flogged old buildings we don't need, start doing so now.
    Use our GG for another GA.

    India out.
    Complete Apollo.
    Enter Future era, start Nanotech for the last SS tech we need.
    We have actually over-shot research, production of SS parts is way behind the techs, could have been much more optimal.
    Attempt to defend Shanghai the pinch-point city but Egypt gets there first and takes it, damn.
    Later we take it and put almost all military nearby, Mech Infantry, Artillery and Fighters.
    After flogging buildings +162GPT.

    Egypt nukes our easternmost city!

    Complete cockpit, start booster 1 in capital, booster 2 in production city.
    Dreading more nukes.

    Start statis chamber in 2nd city, buy SS factory. Now synchronised nicely with capital.
    Get a GE but they can't hurry SS parts, doh! USe him for GA.
    Egypt nukes marble city.
    Another 2 nukes in the next couple of turns.

    ARGH realise we're missing a booster, idiot, another 7 turns to go.
    And there's a UN vote coming up and we've let our CS allies lapse.
    Save and have a think over a pint at this point: desparate times call for desparate measures.
    We can't get reasonable peace from Egypt, and in any case he's decimated our military so anyone else could probably mash us even if we did.
    But we do have a fair stash of cash, so we bribe as many of our old allies back into the fold.
    This should prevent a UN loss, and not give the cash to Egypt.
    Ask for peace, he accepts at all our resources and all cities except the capital, 2nd city and Rome.
    We accept the humiliating war reparations - we have no choice.
    UN vote in 1993 and we are joint first, no winner.
    He can't attack and we complete the last SS part.

    1997 (turn 417)
    Science victory (just), score 757, HoF 912, rank: Hoover.
    Not much point relating the demographics due to the peace deal.

    Lessons Learnt:
    - When at war, stop auto-exploring units.
    - Can't return capture workers to civs/CS that you haven't met, which sometimes is handy.
    - If you're missing strategic resources, alter the plan / find CS that have it, don't just idle along.
    - For late-age games, sell obsolete/redundant buildings as soon as you no longer need them.
    - Don't break trade routes!
    - Don't over-shoot the mark like we did with science, when what we needed was production.

  5. numaru7

    numaru7 Chieftain

    Oct 5, 2007
    Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
    Date submitted: 2011-06-01
    Reference number: 24312
    Your name: numaru7
    Your email: -
    Game status: Science Victory
    Game date: 1949AD
    Turns played: 370
    Base score: 1409
    Final score: 1930
    Time played: 4:08:00
    Submitted save: TSG13_Turn 369+1_space WIN.Civ5Save
    Renamed file: numaru7_C501301.Civ5Save

    Well, i never do good in the Gotm's so this time i decided i'm gonna be agressive. So i settled near the pearls/gems - which was a good decision. Then used the policy settler and 2 more to settle NE of the marble , then between the spices, cow and gems east of the capital, and the 4-th on the coast east of the third city near the cow 1 hex away from the river. I just did that to buy out hexes with the gems/cows/iron on the other side of the canal. It Annoyed Zetian to no end but she never declared war on me in this one.

    In the meantime i build 6 warriors and an archer and what do you know...rome declares war...beat him to a pulp, refuse the first peace, then accept the second one for 1000 and take on of his cities, Antium, that was on the west of his capital and also had 6 iron in the first hexes. upgrade all the warriors and build some more swords to a max of 8. America declares war on rome then ME...again i take a second peace offering for 1000, return with no casualties and upgrade to swords.
    I go back and attack a full screen of units -pikes actually - were he got those is a mystery to me and he just kept dishing them out...but with patience and 8 swords and 1 horseman i slowly decimated him . Took his only city for myself. This also gave me coal for afterwards.

    Also, Venice was always an ally because of what i did for them, after and after i took out Rome too, i had the other CS's on my side too. Had to deal with lacking cult investments somehow.
    I have 4 cities that i build, 2 puppets and Washington DC that i made into the bank - that sucker had +150 with a stock exchange in the end.

    Avoided other wars because i was afraid of attacking over that canal, Japan and Arabia build some 4 cities around Washington though but...meh...who cares.

    By the end some others succeeded to make some spaceship parts too, especially Arabia with 4, but everyone was warring everyone else so...that's prob why i could get away with it. Also in the end i had permanent golden ages and +350/turn with 9 allied CS's with the Patronage Branch all filled out. Other branches needed only 1 to be complete ..like: Tradition, Liberty, Freedom

    All in all, i was swimming in money and i made just a few RA's but kept the pace in tech because of patronage+CS's , but i could have made a lot more RA's and i think i could have finished before 1900. I'm not good at anything but WAR, so i'm satisfied with myself.
  6. Osner

    Osner Chieftain

    Feb 9, 2003
    Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
    Date submitted: 2011-06-01
    Reference number: 24315
    Your name: Osner
    Game status: Science Victory
    Game date: 1902AD
    Turns played: 322
    Base score: 1376
    Final score: 2150
    Time played: 5:01:00
    Submitted save: Ramkhamhaeng_0322 AD-1902.Civ5Save
    Renamed file: Osner_C501301.Civ5Save

    Nice game, popped Empire of the East achievement (38% unlocked at 328 hrs played) - did the insta-wat thing with my three cities, but not beelined directly to Universities. I researched other technologies in my usual way aimed at developing three cities. One next to gems between hills luxuries and one north to get whales and marble.

    Did a lot of trading to pay for the favor of surrounding maritime and cultured city states. At some point Rome declared war, which it should not have done. I conquered one city in our first war and after ten minutes interbellum to modernise my army conquered and slaved them.

    Had a tech lead during most of the game, making research agreement expensive at some point. USA declared war after signing a very expensive one with me. Still cannot understand that particular AI strategy. Slaved two of its cities and continued in peace to race through the technology tree build the space parts.
  7. CapnBarcode

    CapnBarcode Chieftain

    Apr 15, 2006
    I tried the legalism abuse strategy,setting my first city 1 NW of the start, cities to the east on the gems and near the marble/whales, and 1 city west at the base of the peninsula. Maybe not ideal siting -- it took me about 105 turns to get the wats, getting legalism the turn that I finished the last temple. That was about the last RA I was able to get, either due to lack of AI cash or the AI breaking agreements via DOW. Hit rocketry around turn 250, I think.

    Policy-wise, I think I would've been better off taking scholasticism earlier. After finishing the policies needed for wats, with a spacer because the temples weren't finished when I had my first shot at legalism, I opened patronage and then moved over to grab all of rationalism before coming back up to scholasticism. When I finally got that policy, it bumped me from about 590 beakers to 850 beakers.

    War-wise, Washington was never a problem, although he finally got annoying enough that I took him out near the end of the game (mech inf vs minutemen) just to stop losing deals. Usually every time he declared, my CS allies were enough to keep him contained. Aside from George... Rome's first DOW was during the run-up to wats, and I thought I was doomed, but despite having iron he only showed up with an archer and a few warriors, which I was able to run off with my existing forces. I rushed a pike just to be sure. Second time, I had longswords and elephants. Took his city at the north end of the inland sea, was preparing to take Rome, when China declared. Rome gave me his other city and lots of cash so that I could run back and gut China -- I took four cities including Beijing, selling the farthest one to Arabia since I wasn't prepared to defend it and the happiness penalty was crushing. After Arabia finished off India and China, Harun and I settled into a cold war around Beijing. Harun went hostile right as I was getting Rocketry, so I had to go back to get Rifling in order to upgrade my archers and pikemen to infantry. Cold war went hot when he stole the Chinese gold with a culture bomb and I went off on him. Probably shouldn't have done that, since I had a smaller military and had to spend way too many hammers and gold on my army, but they were mech inf so it worked out. I took 4 cities (one that I had sold him earlier) and he sued for peace. That was the end of my wars, other than the aforementioned gutting of Washington just to shut him up. :p
  8. Denbo

    Denbo Chieftain

    May 9, 2011
    Finished it in 333 turns. Quickly expanded to 3 cities and went for scholasticism ASAP. I went liberty, collective rule, citizenship, worked my way to scholasticism, meritocracy, used legalism to get Wats, and then went down the left side of the rationalism tree. I was quite surprised at the rate I was getting policies. Must of been that most of my city states were cultural. Was at peace until mech infantry, when I decided to make a bunch and roll somebody over (everyone else was using muskets). Stayed with a core of 3 cities, but ended up not conquering much until the very end. Had to use my small army defensively against China and America, while only moving away from home to liberate a city state or two. At emperor level, I feel like it's more beneficial to use great engineers as manufacturies instead of using them to finish a wonder or something. I probably could have cut out several turns if I had done that with all of my great engineers. My cities had pretty poor production I feel, and settling down the GE would have helped a lot.
    Basically all of my money was used to buy up as many city states as possible to take advantage of scholasticism. I did spend a large chunk of money buying factories when I started make ship parts though. since I always had minimal money, I signed very few RAs. I didn't manage the few RAs that I did sign very well either. One went to metallurgy when I wanted it to go to computers. That probably hurt me big time. Think I probably could have shaved off 20 or so turns if I did it again using the same strategy by signing more RAs and managing war better.
  9. Attaturk

    Attaturk Chieftain

    Jan 18, 2007
    Pacific Northwest
    Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
    Date submitted: 2011-06-03
    Reference number: 24328
    Your name: attaturk
    Game status: Science Victory
    Game date: 1730AD
    Turns played: 256
    Base score: 840
    Final score: 1647
    Time played: 2:57:00
    Submitted save: Ramkhamhaeng_0256 AD-1730won.Civ5Save
    Renamed file: attaturk_C501301.Civ5Save

    Legalism abuse with 4 cities. All GS were saved until it was time to bulb rocketry.
    patronage x 3 freedom x 3 order x 1
  10. Muaziz

    Muaziz Chieftain

    Aug 28, 2007
    Quick question for the folks who tried "Legalism abuse with 4 cities". Where did you settle your cities?

    I am in the process of writing up my game which was trying to execute this strat, but I couldn't find a good 4th city placement so ended up going with 3. The only possible site I saw for a 4th was in between Rome and America which would have greatly angered both and most likely have led to a war where I would not have been able to defend it.

    PS: Very detailed report coming soon.
  11. Muaziz

    Muaziz Chieftain

    Aug 28, 2007
    Ok, now this is more like it! An old-school Muaziz report...

    I decided to play as abusive a game as I could. Not that I particularly think abuse is good or that it should even be part of the game, but honestly, I feel like I've missed out. A month ago, I didn't even know what RA blocking was. When I first read about it, I thought it might be situational useful. It turns out that it is probably the most imbalanced mechanic in the game and probably the one that most needs changing. I also think the whole way Research Agreements work isn't great either. Having a "deceptive" Friendly AI Declare War on you (with whom you have an RA) when you've done absolutely nothing that might remotely upset them is very upsetting to me because it feels so random. While I do believe that there should be some randomness in the game, crucial game mechanics (including early RAs) shouldn't be subject to things that are completely uncontrollable (I guess I could never sign RAs with deceptive AIs... sigh).

    I decided to use Martin Alvito's Tearing Up the Tech Tree - Science Strategies for Deity Play as my play guide, specifically the section entitled "Legalism Abuse (Siam)". For those of you not familiar with what that is, here is what I wrote about it in the TSG13 Announcement thread.
    So that was my game plan as I started the game...

    Early Game
    The obvious settle spot was 1NW to be on the coast next to the Pearls, have the Gems and Cows in the first ring, with a lot more Cows coming down the pike. As DaveMcW suggested in the Announcement thread, I moved the Warrior 2E to make sure there was nothing there that might make me reconsider... Nada. And so it began.

    On turn 5, my Warrior gets an extra pop from the Ruins in the Marshes to the E. Given that the turn before, the city had just grown to size 2, that is a nice boost. At the start, the city has a 3f/1p/3g Gems tile, a 3f Cows tile, and a 2p Hills tile. That extra 2 production early on is quite the nice boost considering it is free (since under the happiness bonus).

    Three turns later, my Scout (heading NW) discovers Pottery from the nearby Ruins. A real nice pickup considering I was researching AH and was going to research Pottery next on the way towards Writing.

    Build order in the capital was: Scout, Monument, Worker, Settler. I built a Monument second since I had not found a Culture Ruins (which are amazing early game) and really wanted to be able to push out that Liberty Settler (via Collective Rule) early.

    Early Techs were: AH, Pottery (from Ruins!), Writing (start selling Open Borders), Mining (wanted to start selling Gem luxuries), Philosophy (start Research Agreements), Masonry (since I settled Muang on the Marble I wanted to be able to start selling it as a Luxury), Sailing (to link up those Luxury Pearls), Calendar (to link up those Luxury spices), Trapping (pre-req for Civil Service), Optics (heading towards Astronomy).

    At this point, I abused RAs and tech blocked everything I needed to trigger my two RAs: Civil Service and Theology.

    In 2920 BC (turn 27), I founded Si Sat with the Settler from Collective Rule (Liberty SP tree).
    Spoiler :

    In 2560 BC (turn 36), I founded Muang on the Marble with a hard built Settler from the capital. In hindsight, this was a great spot since the Marble gave the city an extra +2g and it would have taken a long time to Quarry it and probably not worth putting a Citizen to work the tile. Not only that, it would eventually give me access (after I buying the tile) to the second Whale which many AIs wanted. Also, my first city would eventually grab the Sheep and Spices to the south, so those were not lost.
    Spoiler :

    RAs with Washington, and (a few turns later with) Gandhi, would yield Civil Service (turn 74) and Theology 5 turns later (turn 79) -- thanks to tech blocking (cheating whore that I am -- and I mean no disrespect to actual working ladies).

    Education would pop one turn later (turn 80) courtesy of a Harun RA. So three relatively early RAs yielded the three crucial (and expensive at the time) techs to really jump-start this scientific frenzy.

    I should mention that I paid Wu for her Open Borders once my scout was ready to explore the eastern landmass. I fairly quickly met all three civs there (India, Arabia, and Egypt). It would be a long time before I would met isolated Japan.

    My next Social Policy did not come until turn 89 (I can only do so much math at a time). When it did come, I would acquire Legalism for 3 free Wats (one in all of my cities since they all had a Monument and Temple, and none had access to Wine or Incense for a Monastery).

    Sadly, my two non-capital cities were still pathetically small so I could not work those Scientist Specialists to crank up my Research. After all, to even be able to accomplish this, I had to have both of these cities crank out Production to build both a Monument and a Temple (I didn't have the gold to purchase buildings at the time). The strat suggested that by the time you had your free Wats, you would immediately install 2 Specialists, but I couldn't see how that would be possible with the city resources available.

    During this time, I had sold all my Luxuries and was in negative Happiness. Since I needed to crank out Production in my two smaller cities, I figured it did not matter if they only grew at 1/4th the rate since they had almost no surplus food anyway. After all, if I failed to build the requisite buildings before the next Social Policy, this entire strat would have been wasted. So I kept plowing away, with my beloved people mired with sadness and despair.

    So it wasn't until after I got the free Wats that I started cranking up the growth and tried to Ally some CS Maratime economies (no point in doing it when your population is unhappy and growth is only 1/4th normal).

    At the end of turn 91 (Ramsses deal on turn 61), an RA would yield Astronomy (I had researched Compass in the meantime) to enter the Renaissance Age. As it turns out, I completely forgot to maximize my RAs before entering a new age. Every "Age" difference requires a +100g penalty to sign an RA with any AI civ. Don't recall my gold situation at the time, but I was probably near broke anyway having spent most of my gold allying with City-States for Food and Culture (and Luxuries).

    Two turns later, I would Great Library into Navigation (it being the most expensive tech I could take). So how did I get the Great Library on turn 93?!? Excellent question. Earlier on, my capital was actually building a Temple. And several turns before it was done I went into panic mode. I realized that if I completed it, it would throw off all my carefully planned math since I had not taken into account any extra Culture (which meant that a Social Policy would become available before my Temples were done in my other two cities). So a couple of turns before the Temple was set to complete (note that I already had Education), I decided to gamble on the Great Library. As we say in Poker, it had the best pot odds. And those odds miraculously paid out. You could say I was playing the EV on that hand. (Ture story: Ironically, earlier tonight, while playing actual Poker for money, I go all-in against my brother with KJ vs his K9. The flop comes 9xx. So my dominating hand is way behind on the flop. Turn and river come AA. So I win with running Aces to make AAKK with a J kicker to beat his 9 kicker now that his 9s give him a worthless three pair. I went on to win it.)

    One thing I want to point out is that I deviated from the strat in that I did not found a 4th City (since Legalism gives you free Culture buildings in 4 cities). I simply could not find a good spot for a 4th city and was very concerned about being able to build a Monument and Temple without having to delay the free Wats for a long time. The only spot I could find that looked decent was south of Kuala Lumpur which had Sheep, Wheat and Cotton along the river. However, I was very concerned that this was smack in the middle between Washington and Caesar, and that my settling there would probably anger both and eventually lead to a war that would be hard for me to defend (since it's a ways from the capital) and could break my early crucial RAs. So I opted to go with just three cities.

    Mid Game

    Rome declares War in 580 AD (turn 139) while in the middle of an RA (argghhh). Sends (I you not) 2 Warriors to my city on the NE side of the lake (Muang), and 1 Warrior and and 1 Archer to my capital. My allied City-States give me the honor of butchering Caesar's forces on the way. It would be a very long time before I could make Peace since I didn't have any offense to counter with and force a favorable Peace deal.

    I need to pay more attention to which leaders have a high "Deceptive" trait (how likely their stated attitude does not reflect their real attitude). This same scenario would happen again later with China (not with Warriors, but nearly as bad given the epoch).

    Stonehenge... completed in 960 AD (turn 158)! I was actually tempted several times to build it earlier, but always had a decent alternative and was really worried I was going to start on it only to have another AI beat me to it. I don't think I've ever seen it built this late. I know that I've played many games (probably all Cultural) where I built it much, much earlier.

    Ummm... Not really sure what really all happened around this stage of the game. Nothing all that eventful. I didn't take any interesting notes and it appears to be a fairly banal period. All that being said, I really feel that this is one of my weakest areas as a Civ player. So this is probably the time where I was building the wrong stuff and making poor decisions without realizing it. Also, reading other player's reports, this is the part of the game where people tend to gloss over the most and as such, I haven't been able how to learn it as well.

    Harun is running at +135 gpt in 1000 AD (turn 160), and that number would increase to over +150 not longer afterward. As a reminder, Arabia's special Bazaar (replaces Market) gives them +1 extra Luxury resource from each improved luxury near the city (doesn't count if a city is founded on top of a Luxury). Arabia's "Trade Caravans" civ bonus also gives "+1 gold from each trade route, oil resources provide double quantity". I guess Harun was selling a LOT of resources to everyone all game. That would certainly explain why I eventually stagnated in my ability to pawn off City-State Luxuries.
    Spoiler :

    This brings up another question I had about Luxuries. On the Diplomacy Overview [F4], you can see which Luxuries an AI Civ has for trade. It seems that if they only have 1 of something, they pretty much won't trade it (unless you give them just about everything you have). So I always assumed that if they had one, that meant that they were actively using it. But apparently, that is not the case. In fact, there is no way to know what resources a Civ already has access to unless you try to trade with them and see if they don't want it. If I recall, in Civ4, you knew ahead of time which resources you would be able to trade. It sucked picking up an extra Silk from a City-State only to find out that I would be stuck with it.

    Ragusa (which I allied on turn 189) would not relinquish its Coal (or Oil not that I cared for it) until way too late, in 1635 AD (turn 237). I assume that Ragusa couldn't give it to me until it had discovered Scientific Theory (which reveals Coal)? Is there any way to know how far along a City-State is tech-wise? For other AIs, at least you get warnings when they enter a new Technological Age. This really delayed my ability to build Factories since there was no nearby Coal.
    Spoiler :

    At this point, I had four RAs on their way and was just cruising. Nothing could possibly go wrong...

    End Game

    China declared war (turn 221) a couple turns before the RA ended. Wu lost half a dozen units in 3 turns, and then asked for Peace 6 turns later giving me everything she had (except cities). I thought that you had to wait 10 turns to make Peace after declaring War?

    Remember that part about nothing possibly going wrong? I am not sure why I got attacked. I never did anything to harm my relations with China. Was my army too small? Was my incense not aromatic enough?

    After researching Replaceable Parts and Electricity, I "bulb" Radio, Flight, Radar, and Rocketry to start building the Apollo Program. I do this with 3 Great Scientists and Oxford. By the way, can a GE rush Apollo? That was my plan, but due to poor planning, my GE wasn't ready in time.

    Eventually, the other three RAs finish up and I am one short (including GSs) to reach Nanotechnology (which allows for the last SS Component). Arghhh. Damn you Wu Zetian!

    In 1655 AD (turn 241) Harun declares War. At this point, I have 3 Gunships (2 Gifted and one insta-purchased upon DoW), a Mobile Artillery (Gifted), and a Mech Infantry (Gifted). I assume that City-States gift units based on *my* tech level on not *theirs*? It's weird because early on, sometimes I would get a Horseman, and sometimes I would get something much better. Harun had actually settled a small city just north of Sidney so he had a foothold near me. But his Rifles were no match for superior tech.

    In 1700 AD (turn 250), I had both a Great Scientist and Great Engineer born in my capital on the same turn. While I did have enough GP points to get both, I was surprised that it worked this way. Normally, after each GP that is born, the cost of the next GP goes up by 100. So I would have expected that it randomly decides which is born first, then increments the total for the next GP by 100, then checks to see if the next one can pop (which it would not have). Instead I got both and the cost for next GP was (correctly) increased by 200. Didn't matter in this game since it was almost over, but curious if this is a bug or intended.

    Rome is killed in 1605 AD (turn 251). Not really sure by who... maybe it was the Americans, or perhaps it was the Egyptians, then again it could have been the Chinese, or even the Arabs. All I know is that it wasn't me or Gandhi (with his one remaining puny city).

    Space Victory achieved in 1725 AD (turn 255).

    Final Thoughts
    After this game was complete, I took a quick look back at previous GotM Science games. The only one I found was GotM TSG8 (as Alex) that DaveMcW won in 1505 AD (turn 211). I didn't look into the details of that game, but I would think that playing Siam with the "Legalism Abuse" would produce an even faster result.

    That just makes me feel sad. I would have thought this "exploit" game would easily allow me to beat that, but alas. I did have some bad luck towards the end which easily cost me 10-15 turns, but was still way off a not-nearly-as-abusive game.

    While I feel like I had a great start and a respectable game, it's clear to me that my mid-game is still far from optimal. I'll keep reading the reports until I figure out how I can improve in this crucial portion of the game.

    A crucial mistake I made (other than not trusting those deceitful civs) was not having a good sense of how long the game would go and how many Social Policies I would end up getting. I thought that I would no longer need Techs by the time I could get Scientific Revolution (2 Free Techs) from the Rationalism tree. That cost me dearly when Wu Declared War (for no reason mind you and with no real army) and completely screwed my masterfully set plan. Note to self: always sign an extra RA to avoid this scenario. But even if Wu hadn't gotten all uppity, I am pretty sure I could have gotten an earlier win by switching to Rationalism after Scholasticism (City-State allies provide 33% of their science output) from the Patronage tree.

    NOTE: I am planning on replaying this game with my same start until my first SP. From that point I will attempt to use my "normal" one-city NC build and slingshot to CS using the Great Library. That build does not expand until the NC complete (although I will sometimes build a Settler in the middle of the NC, but making sure not to settle before the NC completes).
  12. xerex

    xerex Chieftain

    Mar 13, 2007
    I got National College in my capital before settling two more cities. I did not find a good spot to build a fourth. Built monuments, theater in each and got Education 10 turns before Legalism (bad timing?). I just built other stuffs before the free Wats.
    In early game I privileged City States alliances instead of RA's, while in late game I did a max of RA's (those that costs 350g plus a 100g to convince the AI).
    I did set up a fourth city straight East of the capital, close to China. That obviously angered her but the Gold and the Iron were too good. And with the 2-3 Maritime CS the city grew up real fast.
    Social Policies: Tradition, Liberty, Patronage, Rationalism.
    The Arabian Empire was taking Chinese cities so I moved my troops in order to get my share of the cake, but before I could even DoW China, I was being attacked by Harun Al Rachid. I retreated through the narrow sea, and attacked back later, with a few more units and properly upgraded. Took four cities and the Arabs sold the house. I had to refuse the cities gifted else it would have plunged me below -10 happy. I took the remaining lone capital city of China just to connect my empire.
    Things went smoothly after that. I built the Oxford University at the wrong time, that is right after a string of RA's and could only get a cheap partialy researched tech. What a waste!
    During Modern Times, both America and Egypt AI DoW me, but they had no plan. They lost each a few units, nothing alarming, but then they begged me for peace and offered luxuries, a few thousand golds and hundreds of gpt.

    PS mods: My game crashed twice. Plus once I pressed F12 to try to take a snapshot (as per Steam) but the game loaded an old game of mine, so I had to take my autosave of the previous turn and replay.

    PS 2: I think I played much more than 4:39:00 ...
  13. Harbinger

    Harbinger Chieftain

    Mar 28, 2002
    Detroit, MI
    Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
    Date submitted: 2011-06-04
    Reference number: 24337
    Your name: Harbinger
    Game status: Science Victory
    Game date: 1959AD
    Turns played: 379
    Base score: 1130
    Final score: 1506
    Time played: 4:41:00
    Submitted save: Ramkhamhaeng_0379 AD-1959.Civ5Save
    Renamed file: Harbinger_C501301.Civ5Save

    A win, but far from my best effort. Settled 4 city's and went with the Legalism 'abuse' strategy (although I did a poor job of timing it). Didn't build enough of a military, which kept the AI declaring war on me and not wanting to make peace even though he couldn't get organized enough to take a city and I would typically inflict casualties on him on the order of 5 units:1. Mental note for my next "peaceful" game: keep enough units around to convince the AI to stay away (or to at least make peace after I pulverize his army).
  14. ssjos

    ssjos Chieftain

    Apr 27, 2008
    Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
    Date submitted: 2011-06-05
    Your name: ssjos
    Game status: Science Victory
    Game date: 1650AD
    Turns played: 240
    Base score: 629
    Final score: 1310
    Time played: 6:16:00

    Legaism "abuse" strat, but after I had built NC. Executed successfully by turn 93 (4 Wat). Settled 2 cities to the east, one on gem and one two tiles south east of marble. One (somewhat useless) city settled on spice to west.

    Tried to go heavy RA but i got early DoW from china, then Rome and then america so I had to defend my self. Took a rome city up by the whales.

    Policys were 3 liberty (collective and citizen), 4 tradition (monarchy), 3 patronage (schoiatism) and 4 rationalism (tech revo). Was gonna get metiocracy as well but didnt have time because I had taken too many policys already.
  15. Neuro

    Neuro Chieftain

    Jun 1, 2002
    Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
    Date submitted: 2011-06-05
    Reference number: 24344
    Your name: Neuro
    Game status: Science Victory
    Game date: 1645AD
    Turns played: 239
    Base score: 717
    Final score: 1525
    Time played: 4:47:00

    So, I had originally intended to play this game without using RAs or selling lux for cash or any of that stuff, but while I was playing I got so wrapped up in the game I was about 80 turns in and had already signed several RAs and sold all my luxes before I remembered. So I figured I'd go for broke on this one and abuse it all one last time.

    I founded my capital 1NW like most people, and my warrior went NW as well. Found Bucharest, Florence, Rome, and America quickly, and grabbed 3 Ruins (Pottery, Map, Culture). After exploring that direction, the warrior returned home and cleared out a barb camp right nearby and found one last ruins which gave me a +1 pop. My first build was a scout which went east and got 1 ruins (upgrade), and found China, Venice, and Seoul. Once he discovered Seoul, the Archerscout discovered that the coast my capital was on was an enclosed, inland sea. I couldn't get past China, so I explored the coast and found Sydney, then brought the archer home to defend against barbs.

    My initial plan was to build the NC then expand to 4 cities and take Legalism when I had my temples up. My initial build was Scout-Worker-(Library)-NC-Settler-Settler. My policies were Tradtion-Liberty-Collective Rule, then there was a pause due to city expansion after which I took Patronage down to Scholasticism. I built my second city to the east on the river with 4 spices and a gems around it, and my third on top of the marble NE of my capital, on the shore of the Inland sea. My last city was west of the capital, on the coast so I could build a work boat for my capital's fish, as well as build a trireme or caravel if I wanted.

    I made two RAs early, with America and China. Rome was taking Honor policies, so I didn't trust him to not attack me, so I sold my gems to him and used the cash on the RAs with the nicer civs. All three civs were friendly to me, though once I founded my fourth city, both China and Rome showed "They feel you are expanding too quickly" feeling in their diplo, but it went away 20-30 turns later. I should mention that America and Rome declared war on each other about four times this game, so that might have kept Rome from declaring on me.

    Once I got Optics, I sent the archerscout east to look for more civs, since I could now cross the long thin bay without paying China for Open Borders. I found Egypt, Gandhi, and Moneybags Arabia, who financed my empire for generations. I sold him and Gandhi all my luxuries and bought up CSs with the cash.

    My four wats didn't come online until turn 103, but each city had at least 4 pop so I immediately staffed them with scientists. I signed RAs where I could, I think I did 8 in total. I blocked Fertilizer and Metallurgy, and then Railroad, which meant every other tech was one I needed, so it didn't matter where the RA went off. I used oxford and two free techs to get down to the Apollo Program, and then five more GSs (one from Porcelain Tower) to push down to Nanotech, then built the space program. I was horribly crippled on lack of coal till about 10 turns before the end, when Ragusa FINALLY was able to give me coal, and I should have finished Railroad sooner, but otherwise I played a decent game I think.

    Overall this was a much more fun game than the last one, since there was more to do with more players to interact with. This was my first game in a long time where I never went to war with anyone, not even a CS. My mistakes were not doing Railroad sooner, and building the Great Library. With the way RAs are, it totally undermines the value of the GL, and I would have been better off building other things than spending 20 turns on a tech I could have gotten from a 200 gold RA.

    I look forward to DaveMcW's 192 turn science win! =)
  16. Muaziz

    Muaziz Chieftain

    Aug 28, 2007
    I did end up replaying this game to see if the super fast expand (which I used for my first game) was really better than a slower more developing the capital type of game. In this one, I would build NC before expanding (although my first Settler would be built in the middle of building NC, but timed not to settle until the turn after NC completes).

    Long story short (read on for the unabridged version), I felt a lot more comfortable in the early game with this approach. I felt like my more developed capitol allowed for a lot more flexibility.

    One thing I learned this game was that Washington is deceitful... sigh. I guess it's Abe that's honest. Looking at the Civ AI traits spreadsheet it really seems like the majority of AIs are deceitful which is a little lame.

    Fortunately I saw America's attack coming since Florence was my Ally. It's bad that the AI sucks at using Archers properly. America's force of 3 Warriors, 3 Archers and a Great General was no match for my Warrior and Pikeman with the help of city defense. That's a little sad. I feel like the Barb AI is more intelligent than that.

    In my original game, Education was learned on turn 80. In this game, it was turn 83 via the Great Library. In my original game, Wats were built (from the Legalism SP) on turn 89. In this game, it was on turn 97, mostly due to not great SP timing (the previous SP hit on turn 80).

    Scientific Theory on turn 157, 4 turns later than in my first game. Without looking at all the details, it does tell me that both games were very close up until this point.

    Build order: Scout, Warrior, Worker, Monument. So an additional Warrior which I felt was ok. At the very least, it kept my capital from being harassed as much by Barbs.

    If I did build a 4th city, I thing the spot 2W of the Iron near the capital would have been ideal. Obviously, I didn't know there was Iron there at the time, but that's a fine city placement with access to 2 Cows, Fish, and Spices. It also provides a coastal city in the event that I don't found my second city on the coast (which I did do in both games), but on the river instead.

    China Declares War on turn 166. And I lose yet another RA because of it. It's like deja-vu all over again! Many turns later, I had killed almost a dozen units and lost none (I was mostly Healing in friendly territory while getting attacked). However, I couldn't get Wu to negotiate Peace without me giving her a bunch of . WTF?!?... Finally, 30 turns later, Wu accepts a reasonable Peace deal forking over a little gold.

    Can you not re-trade Luxuries? By that I mean that if you trade for a Luxury from an AI Civ or if a City-State (that you are allied with) gives you a Luxury, it doesn't appear that you can re-trade it. It appears that you can only trade Luxuries which you harvest directly.

    Rocketry on 183 (5 GSs and Oxford a turn earlier). Start Apollo Program. In my first game, my Great Engineer was not ready in time to "hurry" it... Except that I learn this game that you can NOT use a GE on it <sigh>. I knew you couldn't in Civ4, but it was not clear that you couldn't in Civ5 since it is listed as a Wonder. I assume the same thing is true for the Manhattan project. Strangely enough, it does work to speed up the UN.

    And here is where I surpassed my first game. Originally I did not start the Apollo Program until turn 199 (16 turns later). Some of that is probably due to RAs and the like though. One well timed RA can make a really big difference. I did notice in both games that there were often periods where the AI was just too broke to be able to sign an RA and no amount of trading gold for gpt was going to help (especially with the 25% loss rates the AIs offer it at).

    All in all, I think both games were fairly similar. Although, I have to say, I really did prefer not trying to go "all-in" on a super-fast Legalism with 4 cities. I felt that in this game, my cities were a lot more well developed early on, and I was better positioned to deal with the unknown. In my first game, I really felt like I was living on the razor's edge.

    I also got to Patronage a lot earlier (turn 80 rather than 101) due to not having to take as many techs in the Liberty and Tradition trees. Part of that was my decision to grab Tradition (+3c in the capital) first rather than start with Liberty for the really fast Settler. I feel like that worked out real well and gave me time to develop my cities.

    Before turn 200, Harun is at 1500g with 193gpt. I honestly have no idea what he is doing. I know he has a lot of Cotton, but still...

    Washington decides to Declare War... again. WTF?!? Thankfully he was so poor (after the last smackdown) that I had no deals with him, but seriously?? I do love how my Allies Florence and Bucharest did a great job of butchering his troops as he was trying to invade from the West of my capital. I also had to deal with some of his troops on the E side of the lake, but my Pike and Longswordsman held that push off fine by fortifying just behind the river (hence causing a penalty for attacking while crossing a river).

    Apollo on turn 200 vs 218 for my original game. Built mostly while under Golden Age (after the 3rd turn) when a natural (Happiness related) GA happened.

    In this game, I did have a lot of difficulty closing out the game due to the fact that everyone except Egypt and Arabia was broke towards the end of the game. That meant no extra RAs.

    Going back on my earlier comment about Militaristic City-States gifting all kinds of units... Within one turn of one another (on turn 221) I get a Gunship (woohoo!) and a Musket (ummm, ok, I guess... thanks... a lot... I mean it... I don't know what I would have done without your generous... err... gift.)

    I had some incomprehensible horrible play at the end of the game (I blame that stupid GE and all the alcohol... can't ever go wrong with that). Space Victory on turn 249 (6 turns that my first game) in what was probably the most botched end-game of all time. I used Meritocracy for a GE thinking it would speed along the Apollo Program. Then I had *another* GE spawn since I forgot to take the Specialists off once I realized my entire Engineering effort had been a huge waste of time.

    Edit: After replaying my horribly botched ending, I managed to get a turn 237 win (12 turns better than my horrible ending prior). The real bottleneck in the end was not having any Coal until turn 229 when Ragusa finally had the tech to know what it was. Note that in my original game, I did not get Coal from Ragusa until turn 237. I wonder if it is based on the City-State tech-level or some composition of where everyone is at. The reason I am curious is because it popped as soon as Harun reached the Industrial Era. Although, Scientific Theory which reveals Coal is actually at the end of the Renaissance Era. Just curious if anyone knows exactly how this works.

    My next mission... Replay the game yet again, but this time settling a 4th city to the W of the Capital, slightly W of where the Iron is. Hell, maybe even found a 5th city late game just to grab some darn coal.
  17. Neuro

    Neuro Chieftain

    Jun 1, 2002
    You are correct; luxuries and resources obtained from trades or gifts cannot be re-traded. As for the Apollo Program, it's listed as a 'Project', which cannot be sped up or bought. This includes Apollo, Manhattan, Utopia, and all the Spaceship Components. They all must be hard-built.

    I feel your pain on the lack of coal, I too was missing it for the longest time. I noticed that the instant Ragusa had coal, Egypt got it as well, so I suspect that two civs have to learn the tech before the CSs can access the resource.
  18. Derfel_82

    Derfel_82 Chieftain

    Jun 5, 2011
    Hi people, this is my first post in Civfanatics.

    If I do something wrong or write something in English wrong please forgive me.

    Game: Civ5 GOTM 13
    Date submitted: 2011-06-05
    Reference number: 24348
    Your name: Derfel_82
    Game status: Science Victory
    Game date: 1928AD
    Turns played: 349
    Base score: 916
    Final score: 1327
    Time played: 3:41:00
    Submitted save: Ramkhamhaeng_0349 AD-1929.Civ5Save
    Renamed file: Derfel_82_C501301.Civ5Save

    I use Legalism Abuse but without any RA.

    Found my first city near the mountain in the cow and another 3 cites.
  19. StrideColossus

    StrideColossus Chieftain

    Oct 30, 2010
    Ditto. Lack of coal really hampered my game, and a lot of others by the sounds of some of the reports.

    And yes, seems that at least a couple of civs have the know the relevant tech before the CS can access it - seems to me this is the same for iron, aluminium, etc? Anyone confirm? Might be just anecdotal?
  20. Muaziz

    Muaziz Chieftain

    Aug 28, 2007
    That would make some sense and it's been my observation that is how it works. I had noticed it in the past with CSs getting access to Plantations once it seemed 2 civs had it.

    In this game, I wonder if signing more RAs than necessary to get the Spaceship techs would have helped to speed along the AI civs to allow Ragusa to give us the Coal earlier. I forget if I could have built a city on top of a Coal just to grab some. I will give that a shot as I am just underway in my 3rd replay (not counting end-game variations from the last one).

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