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Tundra Balance

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by ElliotS, Feb 16, 2018.

  1. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Not me. I chopp more than before but not everything. If I think I can place a farm triangle, or a good village, I chopp, otherwise I leave it.
    If I'm in a dense forest, I chopp more because I need more food, but if I have enough food tiles to grow, I leave the forests. Main reason is that it takes worker unit turns.

    Maybe I'm not playing optimal.
     
  2. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    Thanks for the reply. That makes sense about the desert, my mistake.
     
  3. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I also like my conclusions. :)

    I really prefer the bonus to forests/jungles in this way: it's easier for us to manage (fractions are easier to balance than integers per tile), and it has the added benefit of boosting tundra starts by boosting camps and forests. It achieves the Tundra boost without pseudocode, and it makes Forests slightly more appealing in the early game. I think that's fine. IF there's an issue with forests getting food here, we could make them get gold instead.

    I'm also happy with the Desert change for the Caravansary. Again, player choice > pseudocode, and it achieves the same goal with more granularity.

    G
     
  4. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    It would go well for tundra, I'm sure. Problem with herbalist is forests outside tundra. We should be chopping most forest in such terrain, but we may not. That's why I'm asking to consider buffing just forests on tundra, or plainly tundra.

    Me two. It's like a mini pantheon. Pantheons are what make tundra and desert starts viable.
     
  5. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I don't like this, but it seems that won't change.

    My biggest request would be to remove 1:c5gold: from Stars and Sky and add "+1:c5gold:/:c5food: per 2 tundra tiles worked" to a caravanasery era building.
     
  6. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    There’s not really an applicable building at that tier. At least not one that doesn’t feel forced from a theme perspective.

    G
     
  7. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    See it this way. Tiny island are crap until you can build harbors, and some specialist buildings. With this change, arid deserts will be crap until you can build caravanseries. For those not starting in deserts, so not taking the desert pantheon, it means they may be able to settled such lands in Middle age. Tundra could be the same, but much earlier. The herbalist improving the inhabitability of harsh environments like jungles and tundras in Ancient.
    Tundras could be enhanced earlier, but tundra starts have only one pantheon, while desert starts can use two pantheons. Also, deserts with flooding plains have a strong start (decaying later), something that cannot be said about tundras. So it kind of balances.
     
  8. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Maybe add it to the Herbalist?
     
  9. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    So this adds 1/2 a gold and 1/2 a food to all floodplains. So its about plus +1 yield to all desert hills and floodplains, which are all already pretty strong already. I know a few players seem to think desert is weak but I don't. The math seems really simple, you get extra food from floodplains that compensates for missing a few food on those empty desert tiles.
     
  10. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Not sure how to read this opinion. :)

    G
     
  11. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Let me ask a question.

    In your own tests, do AI underperform on desert? Does desert actually need a buff? I swear once a month someone posts about how bad desert is (or how bad the pantheon is), but whenever I count yields they both seem really awesome to me. Even a really average version just gets more yields than typical grassland or plains will
     
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  12. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Generally-speaking civs who fail to get the extremity specific pantheon for tundra /desert do fall behind. The safest guarantee of a powerhouse these days is lots of plains and a solid plantation pantheon.

    Taking the community aggregate, though, I’d say an extra couple yields in the desert from a classical building isn’t going to break balance, and will offset some of the planning pitfalls of the AI. Same for tundra.

    G
     
    LukaSlovenia29 likes this.
  13. pza

    pza Prince

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    "safest" refers to most or best? as in: "most powerhouses are born in plains+plantations" or "if plains+plantations then most likely a powerhouse"? there's a difference, since i think plains+plantations is a common occurence to have, but there might be stronger, but rarer starting locations. what should we balance around?
     
  14. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Only problem is from what I've seen you've given nothing to Tundra. Buffing forests is still stronger on plains/grassland.
     
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  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Not exactly - the gains are relative. All forests may be buffed, but if that brings Tundra out of its danger zone for AI stagnation then it is relatively more beneficial.

    G
     
  16. DarkZero

    DarkZero Warlord

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    Agreed, while forests may be a little stronger, its on tundra starts that you really work the forests, after the nerfs on plains/grassland you just chop most forests.
     
  17. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Having rivers next to every single farm in a perfect farm hex: (7 farms in a hex) The mythical unicorn of farm formations, gives 37 yields on plains or grassland.

    Meanwhile 7 forest tiles with lumbermills and a workshop grant: 35 yields now, and 38 yields with your buff.

    This is the optimal placement. Villages, Resources, GPTI, land features and such can ruin that. I'm sure that in some even crazier hypothetical scenario you could make an additional 6 farms to increase the yields by 6, but that just never happens in games, especially when you remember that this is counting rivers for every single worked farm.

    In a similar scenario if you worked 7 farms that only had +1 food from adjacency each, and only had rivers on 3 of them, you would get 31 yields. This is a more average situation.

    The math is very clear (imo) that forests are stronger right now. They provide better yield types (I value production over food) and more yields most of the time. Even the most perfect scenarios don't see farms beating out forests by very much.

    Honestly farms are a very weak improvement. I think this is where most of the angst really is. It's not that you 'need to chop' but rather that forests are now as bad as farms have always been. Comparing these to 7 villages (42 yields before counting trade routes or city connections) or real resources isn't even close.

    I'm sincerely worried that you're buffing forests based on popular opinion, which is wrong based on the math and my experience.
     
  18. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Popular opinion rarely factors in, TBH - I'm primarily looking at AI data. I definitely get what you're saying, though, in terms of bonuses. I wonder if we shouldn't bring villages down a hair?

    I've been experimenting with herbalist tundra buff instead of forest buff - positive AI feedback thus far, but more testing is needed.

    G
     
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  19. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    disregarding all balance implications a moment, its a bad idea. as you know, default gov cannot account for the Open Sky pantheon giving 1 culture to every 2 plains or grasslands - he doesn't "see" the additional culture, and so it doesn't factor into his choice at all, leading to a stupid amount of micromanagement for players which ultimately gives them a big leg up on AI who literally cannot do the same.

    it may be fine for just 2 pantheons in the game (open sky and renewal) but now putting that same AI defeating, very annoying player mechanic onto basic buildings as well would be a mistake, unless you can train the governor to understand whats going on.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    The AI can see that pantheon. Not sure what you're basing that on.

    G
     

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