Tuning Autocracy

[CrazyG]

I don't know what maximising a policy means. You mean taking the best choices? That will exist because some fit some playstyles, but I agree with you that it shouldn't be the case all the time, so every time X policy is taken as the first one.

When I have no citadels or unique improvements, not even castles in most cities, but military industrial complex first is still the best choice it makes me sad. That is what I mean by maximizing a policy. Currently even if you don't use most of the bonuses provided, its still better than other options. Honestly with Autocracy I feel like you can throw away most of your picks, Military Industrial + Lightning Warfare + 1 other war tenet is all I ever really want. Airports or tourism are nice but those tanks are what win, with Freedom or Order I never feel like I waste picks.

I have no delusions of achieving perfect balance, but we can do better than the current version. I still advocate separating the two effects of MIC because they do two very different things. Obviously you feel my initial suggestion is too weak, but that suggestion was meant to be criticized and improved upon. If you don't like it, rather than advocate the status quo, help me improve my ideas

I'll take a shot at messing the tree up. These are some big changes and its meant to be a rough draft

Autarky: +3 from defense buildings, citadels, and unique improvements. City connections provide +3+3.

Military-Industrial Complex: +33% towards military units. -33% cost of purchasing or upgrading units. Internal trade routes grant +10

Lightning Warfare +3 movement for Great Generals. Armor and Gun units gain +15% attack, +1 movement. +25% attack bonus for 50 turns

Third Alternative: +10 and +10% to all yields in Capital.

Total War: War Weariness rate reduced by 25%, and razing speed doubled. Quantity of Strategic Resources produced is doubled

I used some ideas from the thread. The idea was to let MIC share power with Autarky. Then I get rid of martial spirit, giving its bonuses to other tenets. This would let us make a new tier 2 that buffs navy. Something like

Unrestricted Submarine Warfare: All naval units gain +1 movement and +15% attack. Submarines gain an additional +25% attack and earn gold for killing units

Basically a lightning warfare for ships. Another thread has stated that some find ships too slow late game. Thoughts?

 

[ashendashin]

Autarky: +3 from defense buildings, citadels, and unique improvements. City connections provide +3+3.

Kinda want the internal route buff to stick around. It sucked by itself but internal trade routes can be loads of fun to use in certain occasions, such as a Tradition game that suddenly wants to advance large distances. Pass it to Third Alternative?

Unrestricted Submarine Warfare: All naval units gain +1 movement and +15% attack. Submarines gain an additional +25% attack and earn gold for killing units

See, my issue with buffing navy is how much it can stack. The Great Lighthouse, Treasure Fleet, Imperialism, England, and others can get a biiit crazy.

Looks good otherwise for yields.

Edit:
Brain went to crap on the first bit.

 

[ElliotS]

My thoughts:

Autarky: +3 from defense buildings, citadels, and unique improvements. City connections provide +3+3.
(Should defense buildings include barracks/armory line?)

Lightning Warfare +3 movement for Great Generals. Armor and Gun units gain +20% attack, +1 movement. +20% attack bonus for 50 turns

Third Alternative: +10 and +10% to all yields in Capital. Quantity of Strategic Resources produced is doubled
That should go there.

Total War: War Weariness rate reduced by 50% & Enemy War Weariness increased by 50%. Workers construct improvements 25% more quickly. Razing Speed doubled.
I think this is much more interesting.

Also is it possible to get
"Gunboat Diplomacy Demanding Tribute GAINS influence instead of reducing it. Friends/Ally tribute penalty removed. Your military forces are 50% more effective at intimidating City-States."
done? This seems SO cool and thematic.

I would also be in favor of a general removal of the "allies can't tribute" rule. Why not? Is that a basic game restriction? Because I see no reason that you can backstab your friends but not your city states.

I mostly still think my original suggestions are on point, but I especially like the lightning warfare change you proposed and thing your others are worth merit.

 

[De_Genius]

Lightning Warfare +3 movement for Great Generals. Armor and Gun units gain +20% attack, +1 movement. +20% attack bonus for 50 turns

Rolling a temporary modifier into a permanent buff does not seem good to me. Even without the 50 turns attack bonus, I would take it, but I like saving the 50 turns for the last war before game over. The bonus is almost strong enough itself to be its own policy, since it applies to all units and not just armor and gun.

 

[ElliotS]

Lightning Warfare +3 movement for Great Generals. Armor and Gun units gain +20% attack, +1 movement. +20% attack bonus for 50 turns

Rolling a temporary modifier into a permanent buff does not seem good to me. Even without the 50 turns attack bonus, I would take it, but I like saving the 50 turns for the last war before game over. The bonus is almost strong enough itself to be its own policy, since it applies to all units and not just armor and gun.

The last war is almost always the easiest, so your personal preference is the opposite of good balance because it's a sub-optimal play. Also late-game wars shouldn't take 50 turns.

 

[CrazyG]

I think you should only get that bonus for 30 turns personally. 50 turns is tends to be the rest of the game

 

[Enginseer]

I think you should only get that bonus for 30 turns personally. 50 turns is tends to be the rest of the game

That tends to be the whole point of the bonus. You get a good attack bonus that you will use to easily end the game.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

When I have no citadels or unique improvements, not even castles in most cities, but military industrial complex first is still the best choice it makes me sad. That is what I mean by maximizing a policy. Currently even if you don't use most of the bonuses provided, its still better than other options. Honestly with Autocracy I feel like you can throw away most of your picks, Military Industrial + Lightning Warfare + 1 other war tenet is all I ever really want. Airports or tourism are nice but those tanks are what win, with Freedom or Order I never feel like I waste picks.

I have no delusions of achieving perfect balance, but we can do better than the current version. I still advocate separating the two effects of MIC because they do two very different things. Obviously you feel my initial suggestion is too weak, but that suggestion was meant to be criticized and improved upon. If you don't like it, rather than advocate the status quo, help me improve my ideas

I'll take a shot at messing the tree up. These are some big changes and its meant to be a rough draft

Autarky: +3 from defense buildings, citadels, and unique improvements. City connections provide +3+3.

Military-Industrial Complex: +33% towards military units. -33% cost of purchasing or upgrading units. Internal trade routes grant +10

Lightning Warfare +3 movement for Great Generals. Armor and Gun units gain +15% attack, +1 movement. +25% attack bonus for 50 turns

Third Alternative: +10 and +10% to all yields in Capital.

Total War: War Weariness rate reduced by 25%, and razing speed doubled. Quantity of Strategic Resources produced is doubled

I used some ideas from the thread. The idea was to let MIC share power with Autarky. Then I get rid of martial spirit, giving its bonuses to other tenets. This would let us make a new tier 2 that buffs navy. Something like

Unrestricted Submarine Warfare: All naval units gain +1 movement and +15% attack. Submarines gain an additional +25% attack and earn gold for killing units

Basically a lightning warfare for ships. Another thread has stated that some find ships too slow late game. Thoughts?

I actually really like the idea of mixing Autarky with MIC, that seems pretty nice. It's good I asked you to show a bigger picture, because it appears to be a good one. T. Third Alternative doesn't seem like something I'd ever pick because it's just Tradition finisher and that won't cut it for a wide, warmongering civ, but Total War is decent. Submarine Warfare is interesting too, but I find that a bit hard to balance. If you took enough bonuses from some stuff, you'd be too unstoppable. It'd be better to add something general.

As everyone is posting theirs, so will I. My modifications/ideas of above ones or made up, feel free to tear them apart guys

T1
Autarky: +3 from defense buildings, citadels and unique improvements. City connections provide +4.
Military-Industrial Complex: +25/33% towards military units. -33% cost of purchasing or upgrading units. - it was a bit too much imho.
New World Order: Reduces Crime in all cities by 20%. Police Stations and Constabularies provide +3 and +5. Build Police Stations and Constabularies twice as fast.
United Front: +30 Influence from military unit gifts to City-States. Military CS spawn units 200% faster. Receive free Spies based on CS number.

T2

Lightning Warfare - +3 movement for Great Generals. Armor and Gun units gain +20% attack, +1 movement. Permanent 20% attack bonus after 15-30 turns.
Nationalism - -33% maintenance, +10 and +10% to all yields in the Capital.
Third Alternative : +12 +5 from internal trade routes. Quantity of Strategic resources is doubled.
Total War: Workers work 50% faster. Your enemies receive +33% more war weariness while you receive 33% less. Pillaging in enemy lands grants +25 HP, and .
Martial Spirit now Authoritarianism - Receive a free Great General. Max possible penalty per city reduced, and +50% against Civs fighting a common enemy.

T3

Gunboat Diplomacy - Gain Great Diplomat Points and +Influence when demanding Tribute. No ally/friend tribute penalty, and +5 from Wire Service and Military Base.
Cult of Personality - Warscores with Civilizations count as Modifiers against them.. A Great Person of your choice appears near your capital. Conquering a city for the first time now a Historic Event.

Wonders:
Prora - +2 Happy base,
+1 Happy +3 of all yields for every 2 policies. (still worse than Statue and imho the bonuses should be swapped anyway but whatever)

Hall of Honour - same as now, but military units can be purchased in the city with Fiath and-25% Faith cost of all units (military included) anywhere. OR if impossible +15 instead

 

[CrazyG]

That tends to be the whole point of the bonus. You get a good attack bonus that you will use to easily end the game.

My point is that the time limit feels non existent, I can pick it immediately and it never runs out. Games normally don't last much more than 50 turns after a tier 2 ideology tenet gets picked for anything but a spaceship. I think at 30 turns it still does its job

Military-Industrial Complex: +25/33% towards military units. -33% cost of purchasing or upgrading units

I also thought about moving the -33% maintenance bonus here. I like how this policy looks now

 

[Legen]

Liking the proposed changes so far, but I think that the suggestions still lack two benefits: diplomatic victory and tenets for puppets. As strong as Police State is, some warmongers still favor puppeting, and PS is near worthless for them. My suggestions on top of Enrico's ones:

New World Order: Reduces Crime in all cities by 20%. Police Stations and Constabularies provide +3 and +5. +2 on each puppeted city.
Reasoning: This tenet doesn't have to be a A tier for every warmonger, especially if Police State is already present for those that are annexing and Total War is available for razing. We can make it a A tier for puppeter warmongers, while being optional for those planning around Police State.

Martial Spirit now Authoritarianism - Receive a free Great General. Max possible penalty per city reduced, and +50% against Civs fighting a common enemy.
Change to:
<Insert name here> - Conquering cities from a major civ grants you 10 Influence to all known city-states and reduce that civ's Influence to all known city-states by 10. Values are doubled for city-states with a pledge of protection to the respective civ.
Reasoning: Autocracy is already a strong ideology for a cultural victory due to Air Superiority doubling as a free tourism building in every city, potentially one or two eras before Airports are available. Moreover, puppets don't increase the tourism penalty for number of cities; if another tenet provides support for puppeter warmongers, then a cultural victory path is feasible. This tenet can focus on the diplomatic part, which is supposed to be one of Autocracy's strengths; this suggestion should bring Autocracy closer to Freedom.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Liking the proposed changes so far, but I think that the suggestions still lack two benefits: diplomatic victory and tenets for puppets. As strong as Police State is, some warmongers still favor puppeting, and PS is near worthless for them. My suggestions on top of Enrico's ones:

New World Order: Reduces Crime in all cities by 20%. Police Stations and Constabularies provide +3 and +5. +2 on each puppeted city.
Reasoning: This tenet doesn't have to be a A tier for every warmonger, especially if Police State is already present for those that are annexing and Total War is available for razing. We can make it a A tier for puppeter warmongers, while being optional for those planning around Police State.

That's a bit of an unfitting bonus. Crime reduction doesn't work on puppets and nobody will send any spies their way due to their low outputs, meaning even if the AI actually builds constabularies/stations, most of the benefit of the policy is gone from both crimefighting, spyfighting and yields. I far prefer the double production bonus.

]Receive a free Great General. Max possible penalty per city reduced, and +50% against Civs fighting a common enemy.
Change to:
<Insert name here> - Conquering cities from a major civ grants you 10 Influence to all known city-states and reduce that civ's Influence to all known city-states by 10. Values are doubled for city-states with a pledge of protection to the respective civ.
Reasoning: Autocracy is already a strong ideology for a cultural victory due to Air Superiority doubling as a free tourism building in every city, potentially one or two eras before Airports are available. Moreover, puppets don't increase the tourism penalty for number of cities; if another tenet provides support for puppeter warmongers, then a cultural victory path is feasible. This tenet can focus on the diplomatic part, which is supposed to be one of Autocracy's strengths; this suggestion should bring Autocracy closer to Freedom.

It's a cool idea that would be fun though potentially OP, but I don't think there's code for that.

 

[Legen]

That's a bit of an unfitting bonus. Crime reduction doesn't work on puppets and nobody will send any spies their way due to their low outputs, meaning even if the AI actually builds constabularies/stations, most of the benefit of the policy is gone from both crimefighting, spyfighting and yields. I far prefer the double production bonus.

If that's the concern, then Imperialism's Martial Law has a problem in its design, giving production to puppets and yields (Happiness) to Constabularies. Granted, the Ironsides is the best part of it, but I find the rest to be decent enough.

Crime reduction is still useful on puppets, especially recently-conquered ones, and remain useful on the core non-puppet cities of a puppeter warmonger. The problem of NWO is that the yields are tied to low-priority buildings for most cities. Defensive and military buildings usually take precedence, even with NWO yields, as they have more important benefits for your military capabilities (including supply). In fact, the extra yields of NWO could be replaced for something else, like additional supply or more yield bonuses for puppets (e.g. +10% and/or for puppets, partially offsetting their penalty), and the tenet wouldn't risk losing much power.

Either way, if you puppet a city, you'd still benefit a lot from the extra +2 , regardless of whether the city builds Constabularies and Police Stations. The important is whether an Autocracy puppeter warmonger can still manage happiness well compared to one annexing cities with Police State, and it is not comparable at the moment, in my opinion.

It's a cool idea that would be fun though potentially OP, but I don't think there's code for that.

Maybe just have the +X Influence on city capture then, reusing the code of one of the city-state quests. Maybe the opponent's Influence loss can reuse part of the Great Diplomat code? The Pledge of Protection, though, is probably too much.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

If that's the concern, then Imperialism's Martial Law has a problem in its design, giving production to puppets and yields (Happiness) to Constabularies. Granted, the Ironsides is the best part of it, but I find the rest to be decent enough.

Crime reduction is still useful on puppets, especially recently-conquered ones, and remain useful on the core non-puppet cities of a puppeter warmonger. The problem of NWO is that the yields are tied to low-priority buildings for most cities. Defensive and military buildings usually take precedence, even with NWO yields, as they have more important benefits for your military capabilities (including supply). In fact, the extra yields of NWO could be replaced for something else, like additional supply or more yield bonuses for puppets (e.g. +10% and/or for puppets, partially offsetting their penalty), and the tenet wouldn't risk losing much power.

Either way, if you puppet a city, you'd still benefit a lot from the extra +2 , regardless of whether the city builds Constabularies and Police Stations. The important is whether an Autocracy puppeter warmonger can still manage happiness well compared to one annexing cities with Police State, and it is not comparable at the moment, in my opinion.

Martial Law is a bit of a general bonus to everything. Basically, a bag full of decent goodies. This is more one-dimensional and it'd be better for it to stay that way. I still don't like your idea not only because I don't like puppet warmongering (especially after the nerf), it doesn't really work with Autocracy while reducing/replacing the extra yields for some puppet bonuses idea is not good because Autocracy lacks yields to begin with. There's no policies at all that help this in Autocracy and NWO is almost in a good spot and imho doesn't need a redesign, so if such a thing is needed, it'd be better to stick +% yields/production/happiness to puppets/etc to some of the worse policies in Autocracy as a situational buff they'd have. All NWO requires is something that makes Constabularies/Police Stations easier to construct so they're more worthwhile and it's good to go. Police Stations not costing as much Production as Research Labs (or do they cost more? I forgot) thanks to the policy would make them considered more, especially if you take the T2 tenet Police State.

Also crime reduction is not useful on puppets at all? IIRC puppet unhappiness is only based on populace number, something like populace divided by two.

 

[Legen]

Puppets have a -50% reduction to all needs (same modifier as a Constabulary), stacking additively, working just like Brazil's UA during a Carnaval. Crime is otherwise just like in any non-puppet city and, like Poverty, tends to be one of the main unhappiness needs as the game progresses. This is especially true during a post-industrial conquest spree, as the recent conquests have to rebuild every defensive and military building from scratch to bring Combat Strength and crime modifiers back to a healthy state. Crime is often a major source of unhappiness for recent puppets, noticeably on large cities and if you were culturally influential to the opposing civ when conquering (less population loss from conquest).

About yields, the suggestion had in mind the other suggestions you made that which increase yields in many other tenets, as wel as the feedback that NWO's yields are somewhat small (especially for Police Station relative to their era). It isn't the major point, though, compared to the happiness on puppets.

New World Order: Reduces Crime in all cities by 20%. Police Stations and Constabularies provide +3 and +5, and are built twice as fast. +2 local happiness on puppet cities.

Having both suggestions at once may be too much, but people rarely focus on Constabularies and Police Stations outside a few cities anyway due to their low benefit/cost ratio on satellite cities, especially when maintenance costs are considered (3 and 6 for Constabularies and Police stations, respectively). Puppets in particular seem to avoid them even with NWO, and I don't expect double production to change that.

 

[CrazyG]

I think that the Police Station itself is due for a buff, regardless of what that policy does

 

[tu_79]

Not being a warmonger myself, I admit I have no idea on how to improve things here. This ideology strikes me as something that won't be very useful if the player isn't willing to continue expanding. Which I rarely do, cause fighting takes so much real life time.

Autocratic civs are dictatorships and the like. While we may be thinking in nazi Germany and Stalin Russia, so were Franco Spain, Castro Cuba, Communist China and Gaddafi Libia. Except China, that went conquering the Tibet, those others didn't attempt to conquer any further. They just put in place a government where citizens had no word, and the rulers were free to make whatever law they pleased. Revolts are contained by state violence. Businesses allowed only for friends. Relationships between autocratic countries are not necessarily bad, so trade and tourism could exist.
What they seem to do wrong is development. Great People also hurted, for those that don't agree with the government are persecuted.
They excell in population control. Propaganda turns most citizens into believers. Only hunger can't be repressed, so population can grow to feeding limits. Fear diplomacy also works. Many minors may join the side of an Autocratic country if they feel more safe with it than against it.
Autocratic countries may not be the richests, but they can focus in whatever they like most. Want to be the first to send a human being to the space? No problem. Even if this means a delay in minery modernization. Want to focus in weapon development? Fine. Want to claim Crimea? Sure, why not?

Right now, the ideology is more appealing for those wanting to fight. I don't see it that appealing for civs that got too big by fighting and just want to stay on top of the hill. Order looks more appropriate for this.

Maybe some help for having one of the largest armies, not related to do more fighting but just threatening.

 

[ashendashin]

Right now, the ideology is more appealing for those wanting to fight. I don't see it that appealing for civs that got too big by fighting and just want to stay on top of the hill. Order looks more appropriate for this.

Maybe some help for having one of the largest armies, not related to do more fighting but just threatening.

Yes, this is something I was going for on my post with promos. I drew blanks unfortunately and ended up throwing out whatever makes units besides tanks useful. It's difficult for me to come up with stuff involving lots of control because such things would also need to be used by the AI. Also balance of course. I'd imagine anything that goes as far as sacrificing your own citizens/workers/GP would make development so speedy for a short time it may as well be LW all over again.

Land becomes so rigid at some point...why should some tiny country I can wipe out in a turn have such a strong hold over their territory? Have one of the T3 tenets let units occupy foreign tiles and work them if a city is in range. (some AI work but I'm just throwing it out)
City-States tend to have resources I really want a monopoly over. Since taking it isn't always in my best interest, can that be changed for Autocracy somehow? Maybe with the idea above, but I didn't consider such far off occupation.

 

[ElliotS]

Autocratic civs are dictatorships and the like. While we may be thinking in nazi Germany and Stalin Russia, so were Franco Spain, Castro Cuba, Communist China and Gaddafi Libia.

Stalin Russia, Castro Cuba and likely Communist China (under Mao and such, not today where they're basically capitalists.) would be classified as Order in this game. Autocracy would describe Nazi Germany and Imperialist Japan more.

Communism is clearly what Order represents. Autocracy is clearly built for Imperialistic nations, which are out-of-style right now after the world wars but not in the alternate histories and simplified diplomacy of Civ 5.

 

[tu_79]

Stalin Russia, Castro Cuba and likely Communist China (under Mao and such, not today where they're basically capitalists.) would be classified as Order in this game. Autocracy would describe Nazi Germany and Imperialist Japan more.

Communism is clearly what Order represents. Autocracy is clearly built for Imperialistic nations, which are out-of-style right now after the world wars but not in the alternate histories and simplified diplomacy of Civ 5.

Then I don't get the names for the ideologies. As for wwii I think there were three major ideologies: fascism/nationalism, communism/socialism and capitalism/liberalism. All of them justified war. Specially against countries of other ideologies. Order is not exactly the word I'd use for a socialist country. So, the link with actual ideologies is rather weak. The idea that one country could openly declare war against any other country, just because, I've read it called Jingoism. Autocracy seems designed with Jingoism in mind. When people feel that way, they are more unhappy when they feel the rulers are behaving cowardly, than they are for being at war (and not losing).

Anyways, it could not hurt if some autocratic tenets were just for threatening, with no actual fighting (army needing to stay large for this to work).

 

[ElliotS]

Then I don't get the names for the ideologies. As for wwii I think there were three major ideologies: fascism/nationalism, communism/socialism and capitalism/liberalism. All of them justified war. Specially against countries of other ideologies.

I don't think it's smart to try and classify real life like that, especially war motivations. You've made the correct observation that countries cannot really declare war on each-other openly for no reason. Thus wars like what the US is doing in the middle east are justified to the public for whatever reasons, but in reality many of them are just an excuse for the politicians to get the country to buy weapons from companies they own. It's effectively a giant embezzling and money laundering operation where they funnel US tax dollars into their own pockets. (And those of donors and lobbyists who give them kick-backs.)

Nationalism =/= Imperialism. Germany was clearly imperialist in WW2, as was Japan. Russia's annexation of Crimea and wars against Ukraine are nationalistic for contrast, as they're trying to reclaim historically and culturally Russian land. (Well, Russian enough for it to count. I'm well aware of the details.)

Similarly Fascism is a nationalistic and autocratic type of government, but nationalism doesn't = Fascism regardless of how some people loosely throw the word around now. Fascist governments are 100% militaristic and imperialistic.

I'd also like to point out that Liberalism and Capitalism aren't tied together. Communism and socialism are extremely liberal viewpoints, while The English colonial empire wasn't very liberal but was heavily capitalist. Similarly 'communist' china is very capitalist nowadays despite not being very liberal at all.

Let's not try to mesh the real world with the game too much. The world is infinitely more complex than the ideology structure could ever hope to represent.