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[Tuning] Ideologies: Tier 1

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Aug 14, 2016.

  1. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I didn't know futurism sucks. Historic events seem to account for a huge fraction of my tourism. Seems to me it speeds up a tourism victory quite a bit, that is worth a social policy to me. Long run freedom with avante garde probably works better, but futurism seems useful for a finishing push.

    Supply on volunteer army makes sense (this suggestion has been around for a while) but it doesn't need anyting else on top of that.
     
    Lucas A. likes this.
  2. Legen

    Legen King

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    It's the three first adopters that get 2 social policies (one for each ideology not yet adopted), then the three next getting one free policy, for a total of 6 civs getting policies for free, assuming they try to maximize it by choosing ideologies least adopted at the time. That's already a lot of civs getting free policies, and helps bringing Ideology diversity.

    Moreover, everybody get to choose an Ideology at Atomic Era, regardless of whether the civ has 18 policies. What could be done is to bring it back to Modern Era, so latecomers aren't getting free tenets too late.
     
  3. kawyua

    kawyua Warlord

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    Encouraging diversity would be a hard task if free tenets were given to
    latecomers. But, I think tourism and friendship modifiers are enough to persuade different ideologies. That is, if there is a good function to handle that. I'm not quite sure at the moment.

    I also think unlocking ideologies at modern would be a great equalizer, but something that drastic, with how the game currently is, might make science civs too strong. I think the point of that change was to make 18 policy unlocks relevant. Still, its not like things are so unbalanced that we can't account for how late atomic era unlocks are.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
    CrazyG and Lucas A. like this.
  4. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    The policy in a vacuum is probably fine, but Autocracy is by far the worst tree for tourism. It's T3 policy is about as good as Order's T1 policy, and it's autocracy. Warmongers get serious Tourism penalties now, so they're rarely going to influence civs without conquering them.

    In the end you'll never pick autocracy for a tourism victory, and if you're forced to pick it while trying for a TOURISM victory you're going to lose regardless.

    I mean I know theoretically all trees should be able to win tourism, but Autocracy in reality isn't one of them.

    As for diversity: It's a losing game not to diversify. If you're behind someone trying for the same VC as you, and you pick the same tree, you don't get an advantage. I think the trees naturally encourage diversity due to being good for different empires and not wanting to simply follow the movements of someone ahead of you.
     
  5. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Actually, empirically-speaking most AI warmongers headed for domination via autocracy win tourism while conquering.

    G
     
  6. kawyua

    kawyua Warlord

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    With how early I was able to get tourism victories before these 2 patches, I often preferred to go autocracy to win via tourism. Nukes win games and often that goes hand in hand with tourism victories. Sometimes the raw military strength and purchasing power in autocracy is enough for a tourism civ to eliminate 1 or 2 of the cultural leaders for the win.

    Each ideology has a different way of approaching each victory condition rather than being overall better for a victory condition. Being just better is too situational to generalize I think. At least, as far as I can see.
     
  7. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    That has less to do with tourism output and more to do with crippling your opponents. I know because that's the case for me and never once have I picked futurism nor cult of personality.

    My point is that the tourism policies don't matter. You cripple or kill all of the cultural leaders, so you'll win with no effort towards tourism whatsoever.
     
  8. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    You're making a false argument, though. If you have tenets that boost tourism, and you conquering, and you are crippling opponents to force a tourism victory, how can you say that they don't help? A 'hunch' doesn't do it. If a tourism tenet gets you that CV 30 turns early and Pacal was gonna launch his SS in 20...didn't that help?

    G
     
  9. Legen

    Legen King

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    Cult of Personality is actually fairly strong, given that it now grants your Warscore as a tourism boost on the civ you're fighting against. Assuming you're winning in combat (which being Autocracy, you should), you can build a +100% Tourism bonus WHILE crippling your enemy, taking his/her wonders and stealing great works that were left behind in the conquered cities. Plus, you get a free great person.

    Air Superiority also helps for a cultural victory, since Airports acts as a Hotel.

    Being a warmonger is also less impactul on tourism output than it seems, as puppets don't increase the global tourism reduction in your empire. France and Japan could return as CV-oriented warmongers if their design is tailored with that in mind.
     
  10. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

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    I'm not sure it is a reasonnable situation. If you reach the cultural victory as a warmonger, you already killed anybody able to compete with you, including this Pacal. Any tenet that would boost your army (and help you to kill Pacal before he won) would be more efficient that futurism (which just allow you to finish a already won game quicker).
     
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  11. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    Basically what Moi Magnus said. In this case, the Pacal is dead or dying. If he isn't or you aren't at least trying to make him so, taking Autocracy was a mistake as you took a tree that doesn't fit the situation or your plan. Every city Pacal loses to your warmongering is one that cripples his Science and Culture as he probably has close to every building built there. The only thing that really helps you get the cultural victory in this case is making your opponents weak through fighting, and if you do so then the tourism merely speeds it up a bit, as the pitiful remains of the enemy's empire wouldn't be likely to win anyway - well, unless you've started the conquest so late he was on his last spaceship parts anyway. If he's that far in and so much ahead, I doubt anything can help outside of nuking him to death.

    If you're at +100 warscore, the enemy is getting completely steamrolled by you. It doesn't matter how influential you are over someone who is on his last breath anyway as you can get his capital whenever you want, and if they're someone who's had lots of culture throughout the entire game, taking the capital will be faster anyway. Free Great Person of your choosing is a thing in Aesthetics already IIRC, and this late in the game the choice is an illusion as you will always take the Scientist anyway. Still, the T2/T3s should go to their own threads, there are some to necromance.
     
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  12. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    @Moi Magnus @Enrico Swagolo
    Exactly. I 100% agree.

    The fact that autocracy wins tourism is due more to an oddity in the tourism design than any real effort on their part. Actually adding effort to increase your tourism doesn't matter most of the time.
     
  13. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I appreciate your counterpoints but you are manufacturing scenarios in which the tenet does not help you. I'm highlighting situations in which I've actually seen the tenet function as intended. Even a 25%-50% bump can be the tourism modifier needed to move from static to rising, and to get an advantage on a civ. Nevertheless we could change it so that the tourism modifier is with all other civs instead of the one you war with.

    G
     
  14. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    The free tenets were there to encourage diversity. If I were to profit more from an ideology most civs have, then all would choose the same.

    Unless it's something like +1 free tenet when the first to open that ideology, +2 free tenets when there are already three ideologies and you're the next to choose, and so on. So, if you are the second to pick an ideology and choose the same than the first, you get no free tenets. But if you are the fourth and there are already three ideologies you get two for free. Diversity and helping the latecomers, but not much.
     
  15. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    In what situation would you profit from going the same ideology as every other civ? If 8 people go freedom the first or second to pick it will win 99.9% of the time. You can't expect to do the same thing later and then come out ahead. Also even if the trees are balanced, that still doesn't mean some aren't better than others for given civs.

    I've won dozens of culture victories with autocracy, more than domination in fact. And I've never intended to or picked futurism nor cult of personality. Some of those were when it was easier, but the point still stands IMO. I'm not talking theory, I'm talking from experience.
     
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I'm not saying that it is the perfect policy. But it does have a role. Now, if we want to change that role that's fine.

    G
     
  17. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Is it possible to use influence as a combat modifier of some sort? Or maybe have it increase the rate they get war weariness based on influence?
     
  18. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    In the end I have chosen autocracy for tourism on multiple occasions. Futurism is a great policy, the :c5science: on unique improvement is amazing for some civs, and war bonuses are always useful. Lets say you are going for culture win but need to deal with someone like Greece or Japan, tough civs to influence and tough to beat in combat. A mix of war and tourism tenets sounds great to me

    If futurism is bad because another tenet is bad, isn't the solution is to address the weak tier 3 tenet?
     
  19. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Nobody forces you to take an ideology you don't want to. But if you happen to follow that ideology with the least followers you are rewarded with more tenets. I believe they also count for wonder requirements.

    Having the same ideology as others is a way to prevent unhappiness. IIRC.
     
  20. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

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    It may help. But I think the better would be a bonus counterbalancing the penalty for having more cities (for example, a flat tourism bonus per city). Unless you want this tenet to be oriented to defensive-autocracy (I have to admit that one time, I was trying CV, but I had no other choices than Autocracy to survive. In that case, futurism was useful because I had a tall empire and didn't conquer anything since I was too busy defending)
     
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