[Tuning] Ideologies: Tier 3

[Legedi]

I don't have any specific advice on how to improve the t3 ideologies. But I have started skipping them in some games. In my last freedom/diplomacy game I just got the t2 that gives +10 influence for each great person, and then went on to start rationalism (had already completed industry).

IMO they feel too specific, and too weak. While I can understand you don't want it to feel like the first to a T3 wins the game, then need to feel like they are giving you something powerful, like finishing a tree does.

 

[ofmiciv5]

Still, changing the condition from fighting with to at war with on Cult of Personality would make it better IMO. I've never had a case where Cult of Personality is anything more than a free GP, period. When I go autocracy I'm generally the one at war with everyone, so the only people who get more tourism are my vassals who I already dominate in influence for obvious reasons.

Actually I just realized that since no one goes autocracy for a cultural victory, maybe it would make sense to improve the benefits of tourism, rather than help you get more of it? Like making people lose less buildings, getting a healing bonus in foreign lands or increasing damage to cities based on your influence of their civ? People are less likely to resist or might even help invaders if their culture is appealing after all.

How ever, I did won cultural victory using autocracy. Plundering works of art from other cities boost yours

 

[ElliotS]

How ever, I did won cultural victory using autocracy. Plundering works of art from other cities boost yours

Yeah, but did you fight alongside any civs that you needed to influence for more than 5 turns? Otherwise Cult of Personality is still worthless.

 

[Galbias]

Still, changing the condition from fighting with to at war with on Cult of Personality would make it better IMO. I've never had a case where Cult of Personality is anything more than a free GP, period. When I go autocracy I'm generally the one at war with everyone, so the only people who get more tourism are my vassals who I already dominate in influence for obvious reasons.

Actually I just realized that since no one goes autocracy for a cultural victory, maybe it would make sense to improve the benefits of tourism, rather than help you get more of it? Like making people lose less buildings, getting a healing bonus in foreign lands or increasing damage to cities based on your influence of their civ? People are less likely to resist or might even help invaders if their culture is appealing after all.

Reducing the healing penalty in foreign lands would neat as a side effect of Tourism as a general change.

I think that the intention is that Culture/Diplo/Domination are all supposed to be valid victory paths for Autocracy, and I believe the AI chooses their Ideologies with these things in mind, in my last game, Polynesia went Autocracy despite the fact that he was very clearly going for Cultural victory, and Freedom would've been way better. Right now I'd honestly never go Autocracy for Culture or Diplo victory and I'd probably never go Order for Culture victory either, their bonuses are just too situational or in the case of Autocracy for Diplo, straight up inferior to Arsenal of Democracy. I also feel like Freedom is easily the best ideology in general but that admittedly might be partly biased from my play style.

Anyways, I definitely feel like several of the tier 3 tenants need a change. Cult of Personality is just pointless for its intended purpose and Treaty Organization and Gunboat Diplomacy are pretty useless as they were designed for the old influence system, Iron Curtain isn't terribly useful either.

Too complex and easy exploited by humans v. the AI. This is why I went for 'win a war' as the historic event condition.

That makes sense, I suppose. I know that with it I'd probably conquer and raze every crappy city I could.

As someone who usually goes for Freedom, the Tier 3 policy of extra gold for TR with other Freedom civs + 1 extra route is very underwhelming, both in comparison to the other two T3 Freedom policies and to Order/Authority T3 policies. It offers little extra gold and in a time where gold is usually not a problem for a civ that goes for Freedom.

It has occasional uses. By that point you probably have a corporation which afaik all have some additional benefits from trade routes, and it's also one additional trade route to use for Tourism. Not exactly an A+ tenant but it certainly has value.

 

[ElliotS]

...I'd probably never go Order for Culture victory either, their bonuses are just too situational...

Just wanted to comment that there are multiple good reasons to go order for Culture.
1- If there are other Order civs you need to influence. (You don't get a malus, and then get another 34% tourism from the t2 policy.)
2- If you can force other civs to get Order because they're slightly influenced and have low health (for the 34% tourism)
3- If you have some insane happiness Order is also better than freedom because a flat 34% happiness is better than needing to build a broadcast tower in the city before getting the boost (and I'm not sure if it affects historical events and such, but if it does it's even better.)(Also note that your public opinion on non-order civs means they'll likely have low happiness and get pushed below you, or convert and give you at least 34% there.)

You get up to 68% tourism increase with Order, which is better than any other tree.

 

[Galbias]

It looks potentially very good on paper, but the civs that are the toughest nuts to crack Culture-wise almost always have tons of happiness so it's difficult to get the superior happiness bonus on them and they'll usually never flip. It would be good if your toughest target picks Ideology before you and goes Order, but if you're going for Culture victory you'll (hopefully) be one of the first civs to pick and Order seems to be relatively unpopular among the AI anyways so I've never been in a situation where it's been practical.