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[Tuning] Pantheons - Round 2!

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Sep 24, 2016.

  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So in the round 2 of tuning, I want to incorporate recent changes and people's feedback to narrow down the list to the remaining religious beliefs that may still need love. We are only going to look at C and F ranks.

    Overall, I will use a simple ranking system to look at them.

    A - Great, no change (not shown in round 2)
    C - Is a bit too weak, a bit too strong, or just not quite interesting enough. Needs some possible adjustment.
    F - Is too weak or too strong, and needs some love.

    Originally, I was going to put all of religion in one post, but there are so many pantheons still up for debate I decided to still leave it as one thread.

    Pantheons

    Earth Mother: +1 Faith/Gold from Mines on Improved Resources. +2 Production from Monuments.

    (C). I think this one is close. The prod bonus is nice and comes easier than some other pantheons. However, it gets no starting faith. I don't mind that, but this isn't enough payout to be worth it.

    God of Craftsmen: +1 production/+1 gold from Quarries/Stone Works. +3 Faith in Cities with a specialist.

    (C). I want to like this one. For a Tradition player its got the early faith you want. I like more hammers especially...but there are just better choices out there. I sometimes feel that this and earth mother should be combined (+3 faith from cities with a specialist, +2 prod from monuments).

    God of the Open Sky: +1 Culture for every 2 Plains or Grassland tiles (without hills or features) worked by a city. +1 faith and gold from pastures.

    (F). I still think this one is extremely mediocre compared to other pantheons. It has a weak start, and still doesn't scale as well as some other pantheons in my opinion.

    God of the Sea: +1 Faith/+1 Production from Fishing Boats and Atolls. +3 food in coastal cities.

    (A/C?): While I ranked it an A, there's been enough debate on this one that it still needs a look.

    God of the Stars and Sky: +1 Faith, +2 culture, and +2 production from Tundra Tiles with Improved Resources.

    (N/A). Community still seems very divided on this one, its either weak as heck or the strongest pantheon in the game.

    God of War: +50% increase in ranged combat strength. Gain faith if you win a battle.

    (C). Still seems to be a C at best, other pantheons can be strongest faith generators, and the ranged strength is nice, but not that nice.

    Goddess of Beauty: +2 faith and +1 culture from World Wonders. +15% production for Pre-Renaissance Wonders.

    (C). Other pantheons provide more culture and faith, and culture is still a better driver for wonder building than the extra hammers.

    Goddess of Fertility: +1 food and +1 faith from shrines/wells. +15% growth rate.

    (C). Basically you are picking this to commit to a strong growth strategy...but in an area without rivers, which can make that tricky. Its also not the strongest faith generator. I think there are better ones to do the job, I also agree with others that it should add to watermills too. Its already a narrow niche, it doesn't need to be that narrow.

    Goddess of Festivals. +1 Faith, +2 culture, and +2 gold for each unique luxury you control.

    (C) - Debates seem to lean on this one as a C right now.

    Goddess of Love: +10 faith and +10 GAP for each citizen born (Era Scale).

    (C). There's been enough good debate that has brought this to a C from an F for me, but ultimately its still a lackluster pantheon to me. There are better faith generators, and the GAP are undercut early game by the common unhappiness you face early game.

    Goddess of Nature: +1 Faith and Culture for every 2 mountains within 3 tiles of a city. +3 Faith and +2 culture for Natural Wonders.

    (C). I upgraded it to a C based on popular debate, but I just do not get people's love of this one. Even on my best Incan starts, I still often get more faith through Goddess of Wisdom or the Expanse. The culture is nice, but other pantheons have that too. I have heard people discuss this one as OP, I just do not see it.

    Goddess of Protection: +10 hp healed in friendly territory. +1 culture and +1 faith to palace, walls, and barracks.

    (C). Still not one I've used much, but gave it a C based on general feedback.

    Goddess of Springtime: +1 Faith and +1 culture from Plantations. +2 gold from Markets.

    (F). Plantations come later than many other improvements and take a while to build, so this one is a very faith-lite pantheon, and the payoff isn't worth the benefit. There are other pantheons that give more gold, more culture, and more faith (Goddess of Festivals for one).

    It looks so tempting for those plantation heavy cities...but its not worth the payout.
     
    avl8 likes this.
  2. Bromar1

    Bromar1 Chieftain

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    God of the Sea getting +3 food is somewhat pointless. After the lighthouse and harbor buffs, food is the last thing that coastal cities need.
    God of the open sky has a decent bonus to pastures but why on earth would you want to work grassland or prairie tiles? In fact the "without features" clause has anti synergy with the pastures because the grass and prairie tiles you want to work have features!
     
  3. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    I agree with almost everything with you.


    I never take neither, they just scale poorly and don't give back enough. Craftsmen is about C imho though, on some starts I would consider it, but still decide against it.
    Good, if you get one of those starts where you get some pastures and lots of plains and grasslands to make into farms. Lots of culture then, it gets really good if you get the Cathedral.
    It's an A/C for me.
    The strongest imho. I play communitas and, on a tundra start and usually get 3-5 resources on Tundra per city.

    That's 3f 6c 6p per city, and usually with just Trapping as half of the stuff on Tundra is Deer and Foxes. If that's not strong, then nothing is.
    It's not abysmal, but I can't help thinking it needs something to scale. It's pretty bad though because it really forces you to take action or you won't found, and even if you found, I bet Ancestor Worship would be superior. Same with god of science + faith per city, and god of commerce, and all three give other yield stuff too.

    Pretty bad. Now that pantheons can give you a straight +2 Faith per city, how about undoing the nerf? Even with it I probably wouldn't consider it though. Maybe -1 policy needed per wonder and +1 Faith per wonder?

    Pretty bad. I'd make it +1Fa +1Fo +1P and also include the Watermill. This way, it'll be the king at developing your city.
    One of the worst ones. Starts okay, scales badly, I wouldn't take it myself, but I play on LArge where you always have to make lots of cities.
    It's not absolutely awful, but how about giving it +10 Food, scaling, for each born citizen too? This way, at least it'll semi-strongly propel itself towards the Faith goal and make your cities better as they'll reach pop faster. Or, perhaps, +1 Happiness for each 10 pop in a city? Love is happiness, some say, this would make it clear.

    On some starts, it is OP as you just settle cities and enjoy +4F and C in them. But usually it's just decent to bad.
    It's not that bad really, both Barracks and Walls are always must haves in the long run, it makes them even more desirable. They are on two completely different techs though, but it's not awful. I wouldn't mind a buff of some sort though. Scales not so bad.
    It's not that bad, and it's awesome if you're playing Indonesia on a start already filled with plantations. Otherwise, yeah, it's pretty bad. I'd rather get God of Protection to get +2C+2F in every city, and GoP is hardly OP.

    Also.. half the time the plantations will be under forests or, even worse, jungles. You won't found in that case, as you'll need not only Calendar, but also Bronze/Iron working to work those. Forget about founding unless you've got some mega strong civ faith ability.

    Would it be possible to add +1 Faith to those resources regardless of if they're upgraded, and then give +1C for plantation? And perhaps add +1Faith or +2 Food to the Market.



    My God of War and God of Protection
    idea:

    Remove the Barracks bonus from God of Protection. Just make it +2Culture +3Faith for Walls. Makes it way simpler and easier to get the sweet yields, just rush Construction and enjoy.
    Give God of War +5XP +2 Production +1 Faith for Barracks, perhaps remove ranged bonus. You still get something if you have to be passive for a bit, but there's no way you'll found without fighting.
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  4. Galbias

    Galbias Chieftain

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    Agree on both of these.

    It's a terrain pantheon that wants two different types of terrain and sort of halfasses both, I still think this one would be best split. ie something like:

    God of the Mountains: +1 Faith and Culture for every 2 mountains within 3 tiles of a city. +1 Happiness for cities founded on Hills.

    Goddess of Nature: +6 Faith and +4 culture for Natural Wonders. +2 Gold from Baths.
     
  5. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    So many C ratings now...
    As I see it, a pantheon must be helpful to get a religion if well played, and then something else. If the pantheon isn't too easy to found with, then focusing on early faith (starting with shrines) should at least allow it.
    A thing to note is that when connecting a resource with a GPTI the 'Improved Resource' doesn't give pantheon yields.
    Another issue is that some improvements are quite difficult to build when they are under forests or almost impossible when under jungles. For example, plantations need a tier 2 tech for chopping trees and another tier 2 for building plantations, and workers need extra turns to chop and build.

    (F) I only consider this if I start with mine luxuries. Otherwise, beelining to iron (tier 2), hoping for 2-3 iron resources inside territory and actually improving them is not worthy. The extra gold is not so shiny, because most mine luxuries already give gold. The extra production sounds good, but only as a starter.

    (C) It sounds good for a Tradition start but when going tradition I prefer to look for food before stones, so unless I get that technology from a scout, I don't know if I'm going to benefit from stones. Then we need markets to have another specialist in other cities, a tier 2 technology not related with stones. And this doesn't scale well, as after the third city is not so good to work specialists (shared pool for GP).

    (A) This one is easy to choice. Cattle can be researched early and is useful for civs that start in flat lands, so unless there is very few resources, it's easy to get the religion and the bonus is useful too (I believe features are forests, jungles and marshes, not improvements).

    (F) Fishing is a tier 2 tech, and getting more than 2 sea resources inside borders of the first cities is not so easy. It forces a delay on monument, workers and units to improve those fishes. Then, the food bonus is something that I don't need at all being in the coast.

    (A) I like this. Being in tundra, first thing to research is Hunting, and deer is easy to find and improve. Add an herbalist and this pantheon rocks. Only issue is that you are better expanding on the tundra border, and after all the resource tiles are used, the rest is quite bad (tradition doesn't care).

    (?) This is like Authority, start close to another civ and/or get many barbs attacks to make it worthy. Fail to fight, and it's over. Never felt tempted to use it.

    (A) This one depends on getting Stonehenge. It's a +5 faith from the beginning, but you need at least another wonder soon to hit the religion. It seems too good, but delays expansion and development, and you need to be in the hill for techs and culture.

    (A) Just avoid fresh water, expand early and you may found religion. It's an easy to get +2 faith per city as those are buildings you want as fast as possible anyway. The bonus makes me forget about granaries and herbalists for a while, and allows for bigger cities once happiness is under control. The downside is that buildings for fresh water/rivers are better.

    (F) Given the way luxuries are distributed, this doesn't work well. You may get a +2 faith in your capital, but only a +1 in the second city and none in the third. Add to this that many luxuries are difficult to connect, and this is a loser.

    (?)1 citizen every 8 turns yields much less than the other pantheons, unless you build granaries. I'd make it +2 faith for granary and +1 happiness for aqueduct.

    (A) Too map dependent, but when it works it's amazing. The same mountain chain can be shared among three cities and all of them claim the bonus.

    (C) This seems good, a +1 faith for doing nothing, and extra +2 per city. Problem here is that I am usually low on gold when building this (delaying Trade), so I just cannot build them when I'd like and I miss founding.

    (F) Plantations are one of the most difficult things to get going. Forget about bananas. Any luxury you think about is usually under forests or even jungles.

    For pantheons that depend on resources, what I'd do is to give faith just on resources, regardless of them being improved, and then a bonus for the improvement. Giving just more yields when the resource is discovered later or is scarcer.
    For example, Open Sky: +1 faith from Horses, Cattle and Sheep inside borders, +1 gold +1 culture from pastures.

    For God of the Sea, I'd give +2 faith to coastal cities directly and a production/culture bonus for fishing boats.

    For Goddess of Protection, I'd make the bonus be gold, so I have money to build the walls AND units.
     
  6. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Just FYI, the reason we went away from 'resource-based faith bonuses') is that it is very complicated to get everything aligned for mods that add resources. Better to use the standardized improvement.

    Lastly, please note this – not every pantheon is supposed to be a vehicle for religion by itself. All, and many of those listed here, need shrines, a natural wonder, stonehenge, or UA/UB/UU support to get there. And that's by design. We will never, ever reach a point where every pantheon hits religion at the same time.

    G
     
  7. notque

    notque Artificially Intelligent

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    I wonder how these would change if you kept your pantheon even if you lost the religion like civ 6. Might be an interesting change that opened much more of these to be cool.
     
  8. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Religion system just can't support it w/o a rework of Pantheon storage data.

    G
     
  9. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    OK, then. If yielding just from resources is not feasible, drop that.

    I understand that some pantheons may give a religion without even building shrines, while other may need to build shrines, and have some luck exploring. But some pantheons rely so much on luck that they aren't useful. For example, plantations need luxury resources without forests to have a little chance. Even after all that trouble, and without features, they still only give 1 faith per plantation (for the rest of the bonus, I don't care because the pantheon is destined to oblivion).
    But some pantheons require that you focus directly on them, even not knowing if they are going to be useful, before revealing the resources.

    EDIT: I think my real complain is that I usually don't start a game saying 'I want this pantheon today'. So I focus on techs that my civ benefits from, or that I think is going to fit the map, and when I am able to pick the pantheon most of resources aren't revealed and only a little nearby region is already explored. With that, I have to make the decision. But some of those pantheons required a different start (shrines before monuments) to be able to found a religion, and then it's too late. Next game I start saying 'I want a religion for this game', so I do everything from shrines to Stonehenge, and this time the pantheon is something that didn't require that effort. In this regard, Goddess of Nature is very rewarding: exploring a little, you know if there is enough mountains to make the pantheon worthy. You can find more mountains farther, or not, but the start is assured.
     
  10. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    To me a core question is "How much faith does a pantheon need to generate to make founding a religion viable?"

    And I always assume Tradition 2 in that statement (+2 faith), if certain pantheons need a tradition start to be effective I don't have issue with that
     
  11. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Even though its round 2, I'm going to take a step back and look at the early game faith generator of each pantheon, to see how they fare just in this department. It may help finish some assessments.

    I am going to assume the most optimal scenarios, as generally you should only be taking a pantheon if its going to pay for itself. And we are only looking at faith relevant to the founding of a religion, late game faith is not considered.

    High Faith Generators
    God of Commerce: +6-9. If you are focusing workers towards roads instead of improvements you can get those city connections going quickly, and you get a big faith payoff.

    God of Craftsmen: +6. Easy faith generator for a tradition player, and starts off very quickly. The +3 is basically instant, and you can push another +3 with an early market.

    God of the Expanse: +4-5. If your pursuing a border growth strategy its not hard to get some big lump sums early on, right when you need it for religion.

    Goddess of Fertility: +4-5 if you focus on your shrines and wells early, takes a little longer than some of the other high faith ones to get going but it scales strong.

    Goddess of Nature: +5-9. With a natural wonder and some mountains, you get a big faith boost that is also immediate.

    Goddess of Purity: +4-5. With the perfect lake start, you can get a lot of faith with no work.

    Goddess of Wisdom: +4-7. Easy to get 2 cities and get the faith rolling, and then keeps scaling well into your 3rd city.

    Middle Faith Generators
    Ancestor Worship: +3-4. 9 population is easy enough to get, and doesn't take much other work to produce.

    Goddess of Beauty: +3-4 assuming stonehenge and maybe one other wonder, its one that starts off pretty quick too.

    Goddess of Protection: +3-4, assuming a military focus.

    Goddess of Renewal: +3-4 with a good forest start.

    Goddess of the Hunt: +3-4 is pretty easy to do, and its fairly easy to build them up and get the faith moving.

    Low Faith Generators

    Earth Mother: Early on working mines is generally a bad idea, but even with it we are talking +1-2 ish faith.

    God of All Creation: A static +2 that does not go up.

    God of the Open Sky: +3-4, but also takes a while to get the pastures in place.

    God of the Sea: +2-3, takes some hammers to get you there.

    God of the Stars and Sky: +3-4, about the same as Open Sky in terms of faith potential.

    God of the Sun: +2-3

    God-King: +1-2. Though it scales well late game, starts out pretty meager.

    Goddess of Festivals: +2-3, and takes some time to build it up.

    Goddess of Love: +2-3 with a good growth focus

    Goddess of Springtime: +3-4, but again takes a lot of time to get there.

    God of War: N/A, I have no clue
     
  12. Sensefocus

    Sensefocus Chieftain

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    I cant see why people consider god of sun better than goddess of festivals. With an average start you have two different luxuries close to the capital and two-three more in range of your second city. Usually I am able to collect from two of them three turns after I finish stonehedge on immortal (turn 35). With reasonable luck you can also buy/trade some luxuries early. No lategame power of ancestors worship, but midgame scaling is quite good, being limited only by your ability to expand fast and buy luxuries. I find 10 cult 5 faith from a pantheon acceptable by turn 45. Prioritize shrines, stonehedge and you can have a religion by turn 90 if you go progress with pantheon culture making up for the delay of monuments.
     
  13. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Because you are stuck with +2 faith all the early game, before any civ wants to trade their excess luxuries, I suppose. (I didn't know that getting luxuries by trade also counts)

    EDIT:
    @Stalker: Nice sum up! Low faith generators wouldn't be a problem if you know since turn 5 that you want one of them and can plan ahead.
     
  14. Sensefocus

    Sensefocus Chieftain

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    Same as god of sun and ancestral worship is even slower with fast expansion strat.
     
  15. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 Chieftain

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    With God of Sun you get Culture to the City, as opposed to it being Global Culture.

    Also you can see Wheat and build Farms right away, at the cost of a Worker.
     
  16. Sensefocus

    Sensefocus Chieftain

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    With festivals you get the culture in the capital, which is usually slightly worse than spreading it out, but you can research techs you need to collects luxs before completing stonehedge without messing your optimal tech order too much, as long as u stay away from jungle and marble or just put cities on top of them. Capitals on marble do quite well.
     
  17. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Warlord

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    Last game on Pangea++ (same as Pangea+ except for City states placement), I had :
    4 mountains near my capital
    1 NW and 2 mountains near my second City
    12 mountains near my third city
    10 mountains near my fourth City
    And all of them were good cities (at least 2 luxury ressources and 3 bonus ressources by City, plus some strategic ressources)

    So in that situation, it is OP. But I admit that in toovmany cases, this pantheon is realy bad.
     
  18. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    But you noticed that you could go with Goddess of Nature before picking the pantheon, and it gave you a religion. That's a good pantheon in my book.
     
  19. Greggy08

    Greggy08 Chieftain

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    The problem with Goddess of beauty is that it scales too much on the level you are playing at: till emperor you can get lot of wonders and get something like 10/14 faith in classical, on immortal sometimes I can manage to get 3/4 wonders, on Deity I can get Stonehenge if I go for it and most of the times just 2 more or so. And it's not worth it. So raising the values would make it OP for immortal or lower, and maybe ok for deity.

    Agree with your changes to goddess of fertility, as it is now I build not on river just to get the well, then regret it in later eras.
     
  20. ColonelCarter

    ColonelCarter Chieftain

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    While I might appreciate Goddess of Fertility including Watermills, it's not really necessary. Taking this pantheon shouldn't encourage you to settle off river (1 food 1 faith is not worth giving up a watermill over a well), it just gives an early bonus for cities that can't be next to a river. With 3 faith shrines, you'll be able to secure a religion easily if you prioritize building them in your expands. 15% growth is a great scaling bonus, and it's not as difficult to found with as say, Ancestor Worship that has to decide between Councils for early culture or standard shrines to help with founding before the scaling faith is high.
     

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